Nice recognition of knowing that we have to get out of this seat. Also, just 4 callers after 7 limpers to a 9x raise with $1500 stacks sounds like it actually might be on the tight side, lol.

I don't like playing deep and OOP to very good players in a very bloated pot. A 3bet here is mostly always going to do that. I also don't like going 5ways with AQo to a semi-bloated pot (although it's relatively small with regards to stacks), but I think it's a better option than our 3bet result. So I'd just flat. Folding is also not a crime (simply wait for things to shape up better), although I would usually always at least just ~nutmine for this price so long as we don't get into too much trouble postflop.

The flop/turn is where we're going to end up so often: OOP with Ace high to a really good player, deep. Heck, we're not even loving life if we flop TP and dude starts putting in 3 large postflop bets. I think we're just simply better off avoiding this spot altogether. You'll be told otherwise, but my guess a lotta people that tell you that are the Villain who's just gobbling up your chips here.

Gmakelifeeasy,nothard,imoG

Know where your money comes from. It's highly unlikely any of it comes from being OOP deep to the best player at the table who raised UTG.

GimoG

Some of my biggest pots come from the best players at the table; I don't think his skill level should discourage you from playing sound strategy at the table.

OTTH.. Preflop is played well. I'm not calling this hand multi-way, OOP, esp when we usually have the best hand & there is dead money in the pot.

Flop bet I like, only reason I'd consider checking a portion of the time, is because we don't have any backdoors that will allow us to barrel across multiple streets.

Turn, x/f. I'd bet any paint card (jack 50/50), for around 1/2 pot. Hoping to fold out pocket pairs he may have. Hand was played well imo.

Actually, it was a straddled pot, so the raise was to $55. Yeah. Nice little $250 pot involving myself and a few $300-$500 short stacks Luckily our JJ found a nice 9 high disconnected flop and we held.

Oh, and I specifically mentioned the seat change button because I wanted your approval...from my lurking days, I know it's a frequent point you mention.

My goal is to one day climb the ladder of stakes, and I know that success at higher levels will require 3betting Ace high pre against talented opponents... I mean, are we really not squeezing AK pre here? That'd be considered an embarrassing leak at the higher levels. The way I look at it, it's better to practice dealing with these troublesome spots in the $1k buyin games before I attempt to play the $2k buyin games.

Nope, that is very false and a very, very common misconception

Squeeze pre is fine though but betting flop is bad

I just fold AQo pre this deep OOP. Call AQs and flushmine, pot control if we flop TP. Nut potential is so important when deepstacked, and AQo just doesn't cut it in my book.

Plus, squeezing AQo against UTG open is lightning money on fire most of the time. To being with, it's not doing THAT well against calling ranges (99-JJ) and sometimes we are crushed by AK, QQ+. I just don't see the crazy amount of value here to justify a squeeze.

If I am squeezing (more likely I fold), it is to $150+ hoping everyone folds.

This is 2/5, no need to get fancy. Squeezing AQo is injecting a lot of variance into your game that you don't need in order to crush at these stakes.

PS: Also, you are in the worst position possible. Why would you want to play a big pot in the SB with anything other than extremely strong hands (QQ+) to offset your huge positional disadvantage? Yet another reason to fold or squeeze to a huge sizing hoping to take it down pre.

No no AQs is a mandatory threeb

Just some food for thought...

1) What nutted hands can AQo make? Keeping in mind we are deep and OOP. One nut hand is KJT. That requires that we hit multiple gut shots. Ex. If the flop is KJx, we still have to hit a gut shot to make our straight. 87o will make a straight more than twice the time as AQo.

2) Next nut hand we would love is an A high flush. Problem is we have to have 4 to a flush on board and only the spazziest of Vs is going to pay you off OOP when you bet on later streets.

3) Even if we have the Q high flush, and lots of money is going in on later streets, you are probably beat by the A or K of that suit.

4) So that leaves us with playing our hand as a squeeze. Obv 3 Qs or some such on the flop is possible, but in reality 2/3 of the time we will miss the flop and only make a pair or better ~50% IF we make it to the river.

5) That means we need to play the hand as nutted and betting flop when we miss to tell a viable story. When called, you need to continue your story on the turn. Before you know it all of the money is in the middle and you made it to the river with A high. How many hands do you have to squeeze and get folds pre-flop or on the flop, which are much smaller pots to make up for the hands that you lose your whole stack when you are smoked this deep? Just like this one.

6) And lastly, you squeezed pre and then decided to down bet the flop. I have no real reason other than, if you are going to play your hand as a merge/bluff, you need to get some folds on the flop and I just don't see a small bet accomplishing that. If anything I would size up to 3/4ish on the flop.

7) IF... we could play 1 million hands against this V with this holding and you BOTH got to the river, it is probably +EV. Problem is you may never get this exact hand at these stack depths against this V live ever again. I guess if you have a large enough bankroll to handle the huge swings you are going to range bet this hand hard every time trying to pick up $30 of dead money when barely flipping against a range you can't be sure about.... Have at it. Also have to factor in the times where the board runs super bad and we have to fold on later streets after 3! pre and a C-bet on the flop.

Takeaway for me at least, when deep and OOP I quit playing AXo anything, unsuited broadways and A or K suited 6-9. So to answer one of your questions, yes I would rather squeeze with A suited wheels than AQo. But OOP, I wouldn't even do that against the best players at the table.

Not saying you can't take away some smaller pots pre and on the flop with A high, but bloating the pot OOP will leave you in some very bad spots on later streets when you miss 2/3 of the time.

Didnt realize board was rainbow lol

And idk about theory but me personally I would not squeeze this hand from SB, not this deep..I would be 3betting a range that has solid board coverage being were OOP..AQs would be way easier to play..

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With AQs you don't necessarily want anyone to fold pre because you can overflush SCs and suited Ks sometimes. So that's a reason to just call with that hand IMO.

I didnt say I would auto squeeze..I'm just saying AQs would be easier to play OOP in a big pot with a big SPR vs AQo

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I'm not gong to stand hard and fast against 3b AQo here sometimes, but I felt it noteworthy to share how things change when 500bb deep and a real player is IP and opened early. I don't care about the little things like isolating ourselves vs the better player with a now stronger range/blowing out the fish, but more so it's about the range pivot that should take place deep away from hands that mostly make top pair. Obviously we don't just not play them, but preflop strategy is different.

I just want to point out that much of the argument made above will also apply to AKo.

If you're not 3!ing with Ace wheel suiteds or AQo or AKo (if I understand your position correctly), then what hands are you recommending to use for 3! bluffs? Just AKs and AQs? There are hardly enough combos of these hands to balance out our value, no?

I seem to remember another AQo deep OOP to a non-moron hand a little while ago, one where me and Lapi disagreed on many streets.

This deep, I'm perfectly ok with putting in a lol 1% of my stack preflop to see if I can flop the nuts multiway, and then check/fold pretty much any other flop otherwise (including TP) if things aren't shaping up the way I want.

ETA: And, yeah, pretty much that same argument applies to AKo this deep, which has huge RIO against any non-moron willing to get in chips against us in position when there's an obvious A/K sitting on board. If everyone is going to roll over / play their hand face up / etc. then maybe not as applicable. But the dead money we're going crazy over and risking setting up spots where huge money can now go in OOP makes a lol'able *3%* of stacks. Putting 97% of your stack at risk to take down 3% of dead money ain't great pokr, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

meh this would be true if we were heads up but it doesn't really play too well multi way

I think AQo is mandatory 3bet or fold, suited you can flat multi way or 3bet (of course 3betting is the "better" option but flatting is ok too).

The 3! might have been a small mistake with AQo. Do we have enough hands for use as bluffs on later streets if we just 3! with AKo, AQs, and some number of worse suited aces (whether it's ATs-AJs, or Ace wheel suiteds)?
No matter the answer, this doesn't really have an effect of the analysis on the flop and turn play, which I still have not reached a firm position on. The exact same issue will occur when we raise with AKo and whiff the flop. The flop and turn play is going to be identical with AKo and AQo on this runout. Who cares if we used a slightly less optimal hand for our bluff? The question as to how to best play against this opponent on such a runnout remains the same.

Think AJs/A10s/KQs is and obv JJ+/AK is plenty. You are not supposed to be squeezing lighter when there are more callers, and for quite obvious reasons. And in the first place you should rarely be 3b utg raises light, esp when you are deep and the guy has position on you. I have zero clue why you’re even worried about balance when realistically you’ll get pwned IP deep vs any decent reg’s UTG range (not meant specifically to you, just in general). AQo 3b or call are fine to me, i would never fold. The more i read the more i find calling fine and using AJs eg to squeeze instead

The best play is to cf and give up postflop on this board. Anything else is pure spew. As I said, this isn’t 6-max LP vs blinds 3b war or or some nonsense where ranges are ridiculously wide so your cbet is literally lighting money on fire. Turn you played fine, turn bet would be atrocious, an even bigger mistake than flop.

You mentioned the bolded part in a previous post. The references I was able to find online state the exact opposite of what you say: when there are more callers, we can squeeze lighter. See this upswing article: https://upswingpoker.com/multiway-po...ueezing-leaks/ You can jump to the last section on "Preflop Multiway Pots Conclusion"

Has the thinking changed in recent years?

Not sure I understand your paragraph #2 (don't we want to cbet with AA and KK here, and isn't balance always necessary against advanced players?), but I agree with your intuition that ATs-AJs would make for a better 3b bluff hands than AQo, mainly because they have less immediate showdown value, but more ways to increase equity on turns which bring a BDFD -- and therefore they are more suitable for use in constructing polarized turn and river ranges. And we all know how uncomfortable it can be for Villain to get his stack in against a well-balanced polarized range.

I didn’t read the whole article, but i suspect one of the points they were trying to make was that if you’d normally call hands like KQo say BB vs CO, you should fold or squeeze if the action sequence had been MP open, BTN call, and SB call.

You’re not supposed to squeeze lighter than your 3b range. That doesn’t make any sense. Intuitively, you have more people sharing the burden of defending and your squeeze has to work a large % of the time pre. A regular BB vs UTG 3b is about 5% of hands. Does it make sense to squeeze wider than this if UTG opens and gets 7 callers? It doesn’t to me.

Choosing AJs >>>>> AQo because when deep you want hands that can make a lot of money deep, ie flush. It also gives you more barreling equity. When you are very deep hands like KQo become very bad 3b and hands that are suited/connected go up in value

Yes balance is necessary against advanced players but it depends on how you define advanced. And most regs are not advanced to the point where you should feel paranoid about being balanced. OOP deep you want to protect your range so aa/kk should be checking flop a dec amt

I don't understand this hate on 3b AQo MW facing a lag open and callers. I'm 3b this all day.
Yes we didn't get the best situation postflop and getting the lag caller
But what happens in the majority of cases is
1) everyone folds and you scoop a nice pot uncontested
2) pfr folds and you get a field caller who you can outplay and stack on Axx and Qxx flops
2) pfr calls and has to fold on a lot of flops and is very vulnerable to double barrels given his open/call 3b range

It depends a lot on your assumptions. In that article, the hypothesis is that the field callers have capped ranges and furthermore are playing optimally. This means they will be forced to fold a significant portion of their ranges to our 3! from the SB. You may worry this assumption is not necessarily valid in LLSNL because players are too loose, however, it is a valid assumption in the case of the hand in my post. LLSNL players calling ranges are more a function of absolute bet size than the pot odds that are being offered. A player may make a loose call with KQo to a $55 raise, but they will tighten up correctly to a $105 raise, even if the pot odds being offered are identical.

Therefore it is correct to think of the $30 or $45 from the field callers simply as dead money in the pot. They will be folding very often to our squeeze.

With dead money in the pot we are incentivized to open up our 3! range for obvious reasons.

By the way, do you have a source for SB/BB vs UTG ranges in 9max? Most of what I found online is just for 6max. My default is to 3! with something like {QQ+,AKo,AQs+,A5s, maybe suited connectors} and then widen if there are additional field callers.

No, it is not simply dead money. A lot of people will overcall or flat call JJ-AA, AK, AJs+ at a dec freq and you wont end up getting much folds.

It is not a valid assumption because a field of callers at live are never playing optimally. And if they were, they would never just auto fold.

Anyway, you seem to already know everything so yeah.

I’d be wary of sources giving preflop ranges since they usually aren’t tailored for your specific game. ie 6m/9m, with the same dynamics overall, different pools. A lot of them are based off theory and what they use in their pools, and that’s quite bad for a lot of games, coming from someone who uses PIO and studies a lot of theory