Fair enough add a couple bbs to account for OOP etc. A pot-sized raise to $17 is 8.5x. Do that. 12.5x is just outrageous.

This is where I differ. I do not want to take AQo down pre, or specifically, I do not want to raise 12.5x with AQo in order to try to take down a 5bb pot pre. I want to play the hand HU/3-way.

It’s 6.5bb. Taking down 6.5bb for free without a showdown is a big deal. If you could do this every 5 orbits and get away with it, your WR would skyrocket. I dont personally think $17 is going to get you what you want (3-way and esp not HU), esp when you’re oop and the limpers know they will have position on you. I can get $20-$22 otb since we kind of want calls since we own the limpy fish that are playing OOP and can pot control/bluff-catch eaiser, but making it this small oop seens like a disaster to me

Sorry, that's what I meant to say when i meant "historically" I was a 2004 type of player until 3 years ago, and am now still below expectation more like 2011 or 2012. I never experimented with raising bigger until recently and I mean that for AQ, 10s, 99s, stuff that I would have just called with in 2004...well maybe not 10s.

Yeah, I've had a lot of Trooper experiences in the last year where I walk away a loser thinking "what an awesome game/table." Sometimes they get there but that's poker. One night with all in pre against short stacks I lost AK<98, AK<AQ, and KK<J6. That's all in pre-flop with the best of it but it didn't work out for me, but still I love those games and it's way better than nit fold fests.

What minatorr said

To expand on this....nobody makes 6.5BBs with AQ. I can promise you that, so getting everyone to fold preflop makes you more money on avg than all hands combined when you get called.

People severely underestimate the EV of taking hands down preflop. EVen moreso if your room is "no flop no drop"

but its not sexy to make $17 uncontested

winning an AI pot of $600 and losing an AI pot of $583 for the same $17 profit
sounds much better.

what he said. Simply must size up your raises to include multiple limpers. OOP I'm more likely to go $25-$30. In position (Button or HJ, $20)

You're assuming you're always going to make 6.5bb with this action and discounting the times you get limp-reraised with a hand that crushes your AQ, discounting the times a passive is limp-calling AK/QQ+ pre, discounting the times you get shoved on by a gambler playing ATC just because stack sizes now make more sense to shove than call, discounting the times you get shoved on by a competent reg behind you who sees 4 callers to your 12.5x bb raise and squeezes to pick up 62.5bb, discounting the times you whiff the flop and fold, etc.

Honestly, if this is the desired outcome then just jam pre. Clearly the 12.5x raise was small and induced this action behind us, and did not accomplish what OP set out to do. Instead of increasing 1bb everytime and experimenting via trial and error, just jam it in there and pick up the 6.5bb. You actually need to bet like 25x in these games pre to take down 6.5bb pre.

You see how at some threshold, the bet sizing becomes too big that you're turning your hand into a bluff? All I'm saying is that for me that threshold is a pot-sized raise. It may be different for you.

Are you even reading his posts Rott? This is clearly not the assumption Mike is making.

Just because our raise didn't take it down or get it close to heads up this one time doesn't mean that it never does. And even in this "worst case scenario" we likely have the best hand in a nice sized pot. We cant and wont win them all but that doesn't mean we should essentially give up pre flop and limp, jam, or cap our raises arbitrarily expecting to go multiway OOP anyway for the sake of what? Pot control?

Perhaps I'm not articulating myself well, which happens all the time, because your bolded point is what I'm trying to say myself. And I'm beating the dead horse again, so this will be my final post here. All I'm saying is that there is a raise amount x, beyond which you're turning your hand into a bluff. Yes, I agree with everyone in this thread that this x should be higher to account for limpers, this x should be higher to thin the field and try to go heads-up/3-way. I also agree with everyone in this thread that this amount x will be different to everyone according to playstyle, table dynamics etc.

The only point where I'm differing is that when this x goes beyond a pot-sized raise (perhaps this is my personal and therefore subjective threshold, but I also think this is optimum and scales irrespective of the stakes or opponents you're playing and that's why I'm arguing so much), you're sort of playing sub-optimally because you're repping a hand much stronger than AQo. If you happen to take down the pot pre using this big raise sizing, you're losing value on your AQ because you clearly had the best hand. If it goes multi-way OOP then you've created a tough spot for yourself by artificially bloating the pot. If you whiff the flop and fold, you're playing fit or fold with AQ. If you whiff the flop and try to make a play at it, your flop c-bet needs to be huge to take it down because you bloated the pot. So essentially you're hoping to hit with your hand, and AQ is somewhat of a strong hand to be hoping to hit with.

Y'all clearly have good results playing your way, so please carry on playing your style.