1/2 NL Live

Effective stacks: $200

Villain 1: Tight older guy, He raises big ($12-$15) when he has a premium hand and small ($6-$8) when he has a hand like, QJ, KTs, 66, 77, 88, etc...

Villain 2: Calling station

Preflop: V1 raises to $7 UTG+2, V2 calls, I raise to $24 with QQ, V1 and V2 both call.

Flop: KT9

V1 & V2 bother check.

Either of these players could very easily have a K, V1 likely has a hand like KQ, and V2 might even have AK...

If I bet my QQ, I will either take it down, or get called by a K or better.

If I check, I am a giving both players a free card, which they can hit a gutshot with or make 2 pair, or hit an A etc...

WHAT DO I DO??????

Checking on this flop is fine. I would only bet if one or both or the players in the hand with me are very loose and will continue with any pair/any draw.

Reevaluate the turn.

Checking back is absolutely fine. Assuming there is a 10 OTT and I'm facing heat, I'm likely mucking.

check it back you're only getting called by better more times than not.

Grunch

I actually really like a cbet here planning to barrell most turns. I think a J turn would be the worst and should be checked and possibly a 6 but any other turn i am firing again. With two queen blockers we can take a ton of combos of KQ and QJ out of villains range and even if villain has KJ we can probably get him off it with multiple barrells. Obv since V2 is a calling station this plan could change if he continues past the flop.

meh i'd rather not turn QQ into a bluff here... no guarantee you can get villains to fold KJ plus AK could be in both of their ranges as well. Also, since its a 3b 3way pot, the pot is already large so you'll probably have to make it ~55 on the flop and shove turn... only allowing one extra barrel... i'd rather just check behind on flop and reevaluate turn. just personal preference and low variance.

Not cbetting half pot here is pure criminal. Dont think so? Then just take it down so easily next time you have 66 in this same spot. See how easily you take it from non Kx hands.

Its amazing how even threads in a live poker forum chat can start off going down a horrid road.

Not cbetting this hand is a pure indication of not knowing simple general good lower limit NLH strategy overall. Seriously.

bet flop is std

You're in a hand with a station and a guy who bet small, which by your own read should imply he's not got the strongest of holdings. There's no flush draw and you've got blockers to a straight which is nice, too. Cbet all day as "only get called by worse", really doesn't apply here.

c/f is fine

This is a cbet because villain 2 is a calling station, and we can get value from worse from him. He is likely to call the flop bet with non-Kx hands.

Villain 1 likely does not have a K. I think a 1/2PSB here is fine.

Cbet here is good because you deny villains their two outters with 22-88 and rep strong strong enough to make them play honest. Checking here is good because you're not getting called by worse almost ever. I think they're about the same in EV overall, but betting makes the hand play a little easier.

No, you are getting called by AT, QT, and JT 99% of the time.

This is a cbet every single time... if you don't cbet you risk calling off your whole stack because you never know where you are at or risk getting bluffed/semi bluffed off the best hand very easily. By betting and repping AK, you you win this pot every time villains missed and only have to pay half the pot to knowif they did or not (not the near pot sized bet one of the 2 villains will fire on the turn if you check through)

When both villains call the 24 it's extremely likely at least 1 has a king. If you're going to c-bet make it small and hope for your 4-6 outs if you get called. I think I'd favor checking through though. The old guy prolly won't bluff you off the best hand and the station will probably be less likely to bet his jt with 2 people in the pot especially with the old guy in. If they check through again on the turn you can probably even value bet a blank on one street and not risk being bet into with a missed draw on the river nearly as often.

First 3bet bigger pre if you are not balancing a polarized range or your game will allow it. I can 3bet to $30-45(depending upon table conditions) here in my games & still get a caller.

AMadison, I have no reason to believe either player will turn their hand into a bluff given OPs read. We should not be worried about inducing a bluff vs a tight weak passive and a calling station. You are advocation turning a hand with a heckuva lot of showdown value & minimal outs into a bluff vs 2 passive stationy players. I don't think either villain is folding any K in their range. Of course V1 doesn't have many kings in his range anyway. Betting one street can be acceptable, but repping AK here is lighting money on fire.

Lets create a range for the villains to help our decision process:
V1(read: tight) should only have AQ+, JJ-22 & maybe some SCs like JTs-76s
V2 could have much wider at: JJ-22, AT+, KJo+, any suited BWs, 76s, & probably more, but I won't include like Axs as it will c/f anyway.

Now our equity drops to 32% vs V1's calling range: AK, TT-99, JTs-T9s
If V1 folds and V2 calls our equity is still a respectable 52% vs his range that I have including his 2nd pair + gutter hands: JJ-99, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, ATo, KJo, QJo, JTo. That may be a tad optimistic for V2.
If both villains call our equity drops all the way to <20%.

I would say c-betting is overall a mistake and given that our reads indicate that neither villain turns their hands into bluffs this is probably a check back for pot control and then use our postflop skills to evaluate & play pokah.

Grunch

Checking here has got to be a huge mistake like always. What would you do with 88 here? BET 1/3-1/2 pot vs described villains all day everyday

If you're not getting called here by worse atleast some of the time you are not doing it right

I think you have to bet here. You seem worried about their gut shot, but you have one too.

The biggest reason I think you need to bet is because what are you going to do if one of them bets on the turn. You are going to fold. And whoever makes that bet could be doing that with a hand you beat.

Having been in this situation many times it is easy to conceive either have a smaller PP than you do. You need to get value from them as well.

While I respect your math, I disagree with your conclusion. You will never get paid in the future while taking such a conservative line. So while you minimize potential losses (a C-Bet), you also limit large bets in the future.

Plan you hand before any money goes in. Why would you 3! preflop and NOT c-bet this flop. Either play fit/fold and call pf (no I don't like this line) or 3! pf (which you did) then continue with your story and bet this flop. Bet it like you have KK, with confidence.
Flops you may not want to c-bet look something like AK9

Someone should start a when to c-bet and when not to c-bet thread
ANL ---- you wanna

I don't think it's a super clear decision whether or not to cbet, and I think I would be doing both some % of the time. But I do think if we are cbetting, we have to have a turn/river plan. I think it's a little results oriented to say we have to cbet here.

Nailed it as usual. This type of decision is close and very game flow dependent. It is great to know about flop texture etc but c betting, like every other element has lots more variables. These are more important on close decisions.

Since both dudes have check to the preflop raiser, that is you, I suspect they don't have a King for top pair. Unless someone has got AK and he's not afraid of an over card to come on the turn. But still, an AK would probably 3bet you preflop. Against only two opponents I think a continuation bet (CB) is gonna be fine. Anyway, a check behind may be OK too but I prefer to CB some of the time, like 66% or so and check the rest. If we check this flop, we get a free card but also the other dudes get to see one too. I'm inclined to bet because as I said, any dude with a King in his hand will not take the risk to check and see an Ace on the turn. Most Kings will bet into this flop. Unless someone has flopped a set and now he's playing the set the wrong way, so to speak ..., by checking ...,lol, lol..,

Now, in a multiway pot with 3 or more dudes hiding in the bush for me to come home , I will check behind too if they all check to me. I know that I need another Queen to have any betting authority.