Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
AKs gets squeezed. AKs gets squeezed.

04-30-2015 , 04:19 PM
Villain 1: young guy wearing sunglasses, likes to talk strategy, somewhere between a TAG and a LAG, likes to put people on hands and make bad folds, doesn´t like coinflips. Is scared of me.

Villain 2: Chinese guy, wild LAG, normally plays 2/5 Omaha, saw him open T7s utg for $18. He came to the table 20minutes ago and is up around $400. Every hand he has played has been for a raise and he has kept betting big on later streets, mostly winning without a showdown.

Villain 3: old lady, plays kind of tight, only bets a sure thing and usually for like 1/6 the pot

Hero: hero's image is tight, aggro



$1/2 NL (10 handed)
UTG V1($400)
EP ($130)
EP+1 Hero ($1300)
MP V1 ($750)
MP+1 ($200)
MP+2 V2 ($500)
CO ($150)
Button ($100)
SB ($200)
BB V3 ($400)

Hero is dealt AK

V1 raises to $15, Hero calls, V2 raises to $50, V3 calls, V1 folds, Hero calls.

Hero is mixing it up with his smooth call because sunglasses guy will not credit him for AK, plus he has a good multiway hand. Normally 3 bets here. Calls the RR because looks like a squeeze and doesn´t give credit for AA or KK

Flop ($150) A,Q,7
Checked around

Turn ($150) 7
V3 checks, Hero bets $75, V2 raises to $200, V3 folds, Hero calls

River ($300) 2
Hero checks, V2 bets $200, Hero???
04-30-2015 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
Villain 1: young guy wearing sunglasses, likes to talk strategy, somewhere between a TAG and a LAG, likes to put people on hands and make bad folds, doesn´t like coinflips. Is scared of me.

Villain 2: Chinese guy, wild LAG, normally plays 2/5 Omaha, saw him open T7s utg for $18. He came to the table 20minutes ago and is up around $400. Every hand he has played has been for a raise and he has kept betting big on later streets, mostly winning without a showdown.

Villain 3: old lady, plays kind of tight, only bets a sure thing and usually for like 1/6 the pot

Hero: hero's image is tight, aggro



$1/2 NL (10 handed)
UTG V1($400)
EP ($130)
EP+1 Hero ($1300)
MP V1 ($750)
MP+1 ($200)
MP+2 V2 ($500)
CO ($150)
Button ($100)
SB ($200)
BB V3 ($400)

Hero is dealt AK

V1 raises to $15, Hero calls, V2 raises to $50, V3 calls, V1 folds, Hero calls.

Hero is mixing it up with his smooth call because sunglasses guy will not credit him for AK, plus he has a good multiway hand. Normally 3 bets here. Calls the RR because looks like a squeeze and doesn´t give credit for AA or KK

Flop ($150) A,Q,7
Checked around

Turn ($150) 7
V3 checks, Hero bets $75, V2 raises to $200, V3 folds, Hero calls

River ($300) 2
Hero checks, V2 bets $200, Hero???
Call, he has a Q or two spades.
04-30-2015 , 04:57 PM
Well, if you are going to flat pre and not bet the flop, you cannot ever fold now.

Edit: get his last $50 in.
04-30-2015 , 05:00 PM
First off, isn't there $550 in the pot on the river? Second, I hate how you play this hand. V2 has a wide range, so why are we checking this flop when we have so many scary turn cards that can make him two pair or complete flush or straight draws?

V2 has probably correctly put you on a big ace and has every combination of A, Q and 7 in his range. That being said, getting almost 5 to 1 to call, so I probably crying call as you are essentially pot committed on turn, on which you should have either shoved/folded.

In this spot in the future, I'm making a pot sized bet on flop, folding to V3 if she shoves and never folding to V2 on flop or non spade turns.
04-30-2015 , 05:05 PM
Sorry I got the pot and bet sizes mixed up.

After the turn there is $550.

Villian bets like 2/3 pot on river or like $360, has $200 left.

*** me. Sorry guys.

Last edited by kookiemonster; 04-30-2015 at 05:06 PM. Reason: im retarded
04-30-2015 , 05:05 PM
Flop check is awful.

I'm still not convinced cold calling the initial PF raise and 3! was good either. What's your plan if you whiffed the flop? Playing fit-or-fold in a 3! pot OOP is one of the biggest leaks you can possibly have. If you think he is squeezing, than click it back to $175 pre and ship all flops.

Yah it's higher variance but you crush a wild LAGs range so GII and get paid.

Last edited by johnnyBuz; 04-30-2015 at 05:11 PM.
04-30-2015 , 05:07 PM
River isn't a $300 pot. It's a $550 pot.

Your hand is underrepped, and I have very little idea where you are in the hand as a result. Villain's most likely hands here are AQ, QQ, 78s and 67s. But villain could also have aj/a10 and think he's pushing you off a chop. Or he could be an aggromonkey who isn't actually hand-reading.

The flop was wet enough that a sensible villain would've bet his entire value range, including his two pair and set holdings. So, (1) his line doesn't make a lot of sense to me, (2) he likes to bluff/barrel, (3) that river was the blankest of blanks, and (4) you're now getting 2.75-to-1.

This is a sigh-call.

Last edited by sierradave; 04-30-2015 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Looks like you caught those issues while I was typing.
04-30-2015 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Well, if you are going to flat pre and not bet the flop, you cannot ever fold now.

Edit: get his last $50 in.
Ya river is not the biggest decision point in the hand
04-30-2015 , 05:10 PM
Seeing the corrected numbers, this is still a sigh-call for me. But it's an even-more-grudging sigh-call.

His line on the turn and river really looks like he wants value from big aces. 78cc makes perfect sense for his line. But the guy is loose and gambley, and you're at the very top of your range. I can't find a fold on this river to this guy.
04-30-2015 , 05:33 PM
How do you possibly take a pre-flop line that involves calling twice?

Non-nit V1 opens 15 from UTG. I'd 3-bet him the first time.

Calling isn't terrible though.

Then a wild V2 LAG 3-bets both of you to 50. V3 old lady calls. Pot is 130.

Then you call? I've never seen AKs call twice pre-flop. It's a record.

Either way, the second time around, 4-bet to 225 and don't fold.

I read what you wrote - er, dude, AKs is not really "a good multi-way hand" especially when you're going to have a really low SPR post-flop and you're oop. It is a pre-flop powerhouse, though.

As played, I think you can just fold the turn and not tell anyone. Villain has a ton of 7x in his hand after checking flop and raising turn. He can also have QQ. I don't think he checks flop with many value hands you beat or bluff hands that raise the 7 turn. I think 3-bet shoving the turn tends towards spew here, and bet/calling turn to either c/f or c/c river kind of sucks.
04-30-2015 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
Calls the RR because looks like a squeeze and doesn't give credit for AA or KK
Also, if it looks like V is on a squeeze, it's an ever better spot to go to war with AKs pre-flop.

AKs has only 60% equity vs., say, T9s. 60/40 man. And if old lady has a mid-pocket pair or something and folds, you're minting money.

Taking down a large pre-flop pot and getting V's to fold away a ton of collective equity is huge for you.
04-30-2015 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
(1) his line doesn't make a lot of sense to me, (2) he likes to bluff/barrel, (3) that river was the blankest of blanks, and (4) you're now getting 2.75-to-1.
All of this. I def 3-bet myself pre (or 4-bet if I smooth called the first time), and bet the flop. Unless V is a super maniac, I fold turn, but if I got to the river, I'm never folding here.
04-30-2015 , 05:47 PM
Pre-flop is the biggest issue with the hand.

Going to a flop out of position to V2 with AKs and an SPR of ~3 can't be good.

You'll end up check/folding the majority of the time. And often with the best hand.

It's pretty unusual that you'd ever fold post-flop given the dynamics (stack depth, villain tendencies, etc), but I'm not seeing you having the best hand after V2 AQ7ss 3 ways and then raises the turn with reasonable value sizing on another 7.

Also, leading the flop would be terrible. If you led the flop, V happily folds ~90% of his range. You need to check the flop (which you did) and let V c-bet into you with a wide range. I'm not worried about V3 and assume she's on hands like dominated aces or middling pocket pairs a lot. Once the flop checks around, yes, you need to bet the turn for value... but facing that raise, I just fold and don't tell.
04-30-2015 , 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
...SPR of ~3 can't be good.
SPR?

I hated this hand on every street. So 4betting to 225, shoving any flop for $275 more on the flop is the concensus? What if LAG and little old lady call preflop???

Last edited by kookiemonster; 04-30-2015 at 06:42 PM. Reason: im retarded still
04-30-2015 , 06:45 PM
Stack to pot ratio. How much effective stacks are in comparison to how much is in the middle.
04-30-2015 , 07:13 PM
4-bet shoving pre-flop is probably also OK and may be better.

They can fold so often - and when they call, it's not terrible - so that can't be bad.

I also don't think shoving is a terrible over bet or anything with 65BB in the pot.

Yeah, if you 4-bet to 225 and get call(s), you're probably shipping flops. The pot will be large, and whether you smack it or not, betting should make sense for fold equity + hand equity given the reward (huge pot) vs. risk (shallower stacks behind).
04-30-2015 , 07:28 PM
Preflop: I'm 3! most of the time but occasionally calling so the first flat is fine. I'm not flatting the second time around though. I'm either back raising a 4! or folding (which sounds sacrilegious). I assume grandma has some sort of pair and not AA or KK since we have a blocker and she didn't 4bet 1/6th pot or w/e. I'd probably go ahead and 4! here given the 3! range of V2.

Flop: If Villain is as described we should have seen a fair number of flops and if you say "he kept betting big" after the flop and that means he is c-betting a high frequency even into multiple people on an A hi wet board here then a check to the raiser is OK. If on the other hand he understands cbetting and board textures and is less likely to cbet this flop with air, I'm probably just going ahead and leading as there are not all that many turn cards which give opponents a second best hand that will give us action.

Turn: Now that we did elect to check and Villain checked behind, I don't really see how we can fold to him OTT. If he's semi-bluffing, we could raise back but we will fold a lot of his range that would bluff the river. At this point as played, I'd station him turn and non-spade rivers. On spade rivers we have to go with our LOL live read.

River. Snap call. I already decided that OTT TPTK is under repped preflop and OTF and way ahead of a wild lags range here. Does he ever show up with AQ? Rarely. Does he ever show up with 7x? yep.
04-30-2015 , 08:50 PM
3 bet after the first open imo. 4 bet the lag 200-250 and punish him.
05-01-2015 , 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
SPR?

I hated this hand on every street. So 4betting to 225, shoving any flop for $275 more on the flop is the concensus? What if LAG and little old lady call preflop???
Then you're not likely to be up against AA or KK in that situation because those hands will often shove. AKs gets a lot of value in that spot.

If you think 4-betting to 225 is questionable, imagine how bad calling with a worse hand is.
05-01-2015 , 12:09 PM
I don't like that flop check at all. You're playing an aggro with an ATC (any two cards, before you ask) mentality and on the turn you've now opened yourself up to a world of hurt.
05-01-2015 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Well, if you are going to flat pre and not bet the flop ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiltbox5000
V2 has a wide range, so why are we checking this flop ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Flop check is awful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by refinedsugar
I don't like that flop check at all.
Sorry guys, but leading the flop is just complete spew.

V is a wild LAG who 3-bet pre, and "Every hand he has played has been for a raise and he has kept betting big on later streets, mostly winning without a showdown."

We flopped TPTK with an SPR ~3.

A flop lead mostly blows V off air hands and just seems terrible. And a raise puts you in a bad spot.

No offense intended here, but you guys are way too afraid of playing oop and against a loose aggressive villain. It's really not that hard in a hand like this... check the flop and let him do the betting. There are very few situations where I would lead this flop... and this is never one of them.

As the hand played out... the super duper aggressive V checks this flop behind... that's a red flag. So let's note it. Then we lead the turn - which is absolutely the right thing to do to get value from worse - and now V puts in a reasonably sized raise.

So I think it's a tight fold as played, but that does NOT suggest checking the flop was wrong.

Checking the flop as played is mandatory and leading it is pure spew.

And either way, I would have gotten more chips in the pot pre-flop.
05-01-2015 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
Sorry guys, but leading the flop is just complete spew.

V is a wild LAG who 3-bet pre, and "Every hand he has played has been for a raise and he has kept betting big on later streets, mostly winning without a showdown."

We flopped TPTK with an SPR ~3.

A flop lead mostly blows V off air hands and just seems terrible. And a raise puts you in a bad spot.

No offense intended here, but you guys are way too afraid of playing oop and against a loose aggressive villain. It's really not that hard in a hand like this... check the flop and let him do the betting. There are very few situations where I would lead this flop... and this is never one of them.

As the hand played out... the super duper aggressive V checks this flop behind... that's a red flag. So let's note it. Then we lead the turn - which is absolutely the right thing to do to get value from worse - and now V puts in a reasonably sized raise.

So I think it's a tight fold as played, but that does NOT suggest checking the flop was wrong.

Checking the flop as played is mandatory and leading it is pure spew.

And either way, I would have gotten more chips in the pot pre-flop.
I disagree. Being a LAG c-betting heads-up in a small pot on the flop is entirely different from doing it multi-way in a 3! pot where a c-bet will commit him. The value we get here (in my opinion) is from V's worse Ax that he can't fold and flush draws he wants to chase.

We aren't getting another bet out out of him by checking as he's not going to turn his mid-pocket pairs into a bluff. We called an EP raise followed by a 3! OOP. Hero should have an Ace in his hand like 99% of the time here and V should know that.

Checking just gives him a chance to catch up and it looks like that may have happened on the turn. I'm perfectly happy taking this pot down on the flop as played and happily calling a shove if that's what happens. TPTK isn't a hand to slowplay in this situation.

Also - how can donking flop simultaneously be considered spew and playing afraid? That doesn't make sense. We shouldn't normally be in this situation, meaning we shouldn't normally have to donk here but since Op effed up PF this is the spot we are in which is why I'm leading flop.
05-01-2015 , 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit
3 bet after the first open imo. 4 bet the lag 200-250 and punish him.
How do other players typically perceive back-raises?
05-01-2015 , 01:16 PM
I agree that the flop check is a red flag. What about checking and calling the turn, river? Now that I´m thinking about it, I expect him to bet this turn just about 100% of the time. I changed my mind at the time because of the old lady in the hand.

To add some more interesting discussion, if we were dealt AQ, how would we play this hand?
05-01-2015 , 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenzY
How do other players typically perceive back-raises?
When villain(s) can be wide, we put 1/2 our stack in the middle, and we're never folding, it almost doesn't matter. That said, I think our perceived range can include a mix of AK and strong pairs such that the old lady folds can fold flips (88-JJ). That said, I'd 3-bet the first time. If we call, then given the dynamics that unfolded, putting in the back-raise is by far the optimal play.
Closed Thread Subscribe
...

      
m