Game: wild and aggressive $1,3 NL

Hero: 30 white, playing loose aggressive, taking advantage of two bad players who are playing every hand. $725 up from $200 buy in by making TP or better against donators and value betting.

Villain: early to mid 20s white, only other competent player. Obv grinds quite a bit if not for a living. Opening wide range in position, cbets 90%, villain and hero have more or less been taking turns abusing two large whales. ~ $900

Pre-flop: 3 limps, including both whales to hero in lp. Hero makes it $17. This sizing is consistent with hero's previous opens with limpers and is designed to iso one or both whales. Villain in BB makes it $65. Folds to hero.

Hero?

We are deep enough that I don't hate a flat.
But against a competent villain who has not been 3betting often I'm ok folding also.

His range should be amazingly strong given we are deep & in position, along with the presence of the whales. This 3bet should never be a semibluff with a speculative hand. Don't hate a fold. Aside from a gin flop (trips+) we aren't continuing profitably against his range and skill level often enough IMO.

If we flat, we are likely going to miss, so what's our plan when he cbets? Without a reliable read that this player has some post flop betting tendencies in 3 bet pots we can exploit, I don't think flatting to hit is profitable.

Based on your description, I think it's fair to say he may think you're iso'ing the whales and decided to squeeze. I wouldn't hate putting in a small 4bet to 165 because we take down the pot preflop pretty often. I'd hate to flat against some pp or sc and have to fold all flops I miss when he cbets. Disclaimer: This is totally dependent on whether he is thinking this deeply. If he isn't and his range is the typical QQ+ AKs, then it's a clear fold.

Last point, why tangle with the only other good player at the table? There much better spots.

I think fold > raise > call

Trivial flat.

Hate folding.

Hate raising a bit less.

I think an aggro villain can be doing this light. Were I in V's shoes I'd probably do this once in a blue moon with this dynamic with a suited Broadway knowing that three of the four likeliest outcomes (everyone folds, whale calls and I take it down with a C-bet, reg calls and I take it down with a C-bet) are profitable.

I'd click back to $165, fold to a jam.

How deep are the whales? If $65 commits villain against the whales stacks, then you should figure he is never bluffing or doing this real light. In that case, just fold because your EV is going to be thin or negative.

After that, this mostly has to do with history between you and villain that just can't be judged remotely. Have you been actively staying out of each others way? Then I'm inclined to put him on a strong range and fold. If you have been playing back each other a bit, then your hand is too good to give up preflop. Either fold or raise smallish.

What range can we put the V on. Does TT+ AJs+ AQo+ sound reasonable? Is it possible he is 3 betting a little light becaused he recognized that you have the ability to iso a little light?

Had the two fish called any 3 bets yet? If they had I would give him a little stronger range.

We have position, I think a 4-bet/fold is possible. I would not make it a min-raise though. I think this is better than flatting.

DO the other two guys have any chips left? Are they gonna be there for a bit so you can reasonably expect to get the money back if you have to fold after a 4 bet?

The real problem is you aren't making money off of him, you're there to crush the other two guys. Folding is arguably the best move but it opens up problems if he then thinks he can 3! and continue to get folds. 4! may help convince him to stay out of your way as you would much rather be able to Iso the other two and not have to worry about him.

I am new here and just my humble opinion to see if my thinking relates with that of others.

I'd typically have to raise much more after 3 limps in order to have success iso'ing the whales, but if this raise size is getting it down, fine.

I'd fold to the 3bet. We are simply not going to make any real money off this competent Villain if he has QQ- on a A/K flop (we'll win one bet, at most), and yet he'll win gobs of money on A/K flops vs us if he has AA/KK. Don't risk any significant chunk of our stack in a stupid dick measuring war against the only other competent villain at the table; we want to retain these stacks so we can stack the whales.

GcluessNLnoobG

I agree. Even if a fold is a bit nitty, its whatever, you are making good money off the whales so why get into a potential bad spot vs the one other guy who is decent. Could he be 3-betting light? Sure, but I think a pair is likely. There will be better spots to make $ at this tabke

That's a pretty huge raise. I think folding is probably best per GG's reasoning of you're not going to make much money even if we connected with the flop.

On the other hand, you're deep enough to 4b/f this IMO. There are 30bbs in the pot and that's not an insignificant amount to fight over. You've got blockers to AA and KK, so his range his handicapped somewhat.

One whale had about $600 the other at least $500. Hero and villain had some history this session. Hero 3 bet over villains $30 open in a straddled pot to $120 after both whales called with AQss. Villain folded that hand but cards were exposed as one whale shoved for $100 additional and spiked a K with KQos. Villain has taken down a couple pots that hero was involved in by betting with initiative and position.

Hero was torn between small 4 bet to $150 ish and folding. Ended up folding. Probably would have shipped 100bb stacks.

This depends on the table dynamic. It is possible that the villain knew you were trying to iso the bad players (which means he may periodically try a play like this with a wider range), but that is guesswork. Even if you flop an A or K, the villain will probably limit his losses with qq or jj and then take your whole stack with AA or KK, I would fold AK and wait for a better spot. Or, if you see him do this a couple times, then start repopping him.

can´t believe how many are advocating to fold, or, imo, even worse 4bet/folding small and throwing away all our equity, get rid of his weaker hands and iso ourself vs his strongest range.

he made a normal sized 3bet, we got position with a hand that plays really well in 3bet HU pots.

looks like a trivial flat to me, i think most are just advocating to fold here because it might get tricky vs this particular villain, which imo is just looking for an easy way out.

Since when does AK play really well in 3b HU pots when we are the ones flatting the 3b?

V's 3b is more than a PSB here and a pretty large 3b at that.

When we flat and brick 2/3 of the boards, we're just folding to the cbet. When we flat then flop TPTK and get heat, we're still probably folding (though it's a lot more expensive). Folding to the big 3b isn't "looking for an easy way out", it's the play that's correct a large percentage of the time (barring extenuating circumstances) and the one which caps our losses for the hand at $17 when we probably aren't going to win a large pot anyway.

The last time I was in a similar situation I flatted hit a king and lost a decent pot against his AA. He may not have AA but if he has queens for example chances are you lose unless you hit your ace or king and if that's the case he slows down anyway so you don't get paid. Is he likely to be 3 betting with dominated hands??

Unless you think you can outplay him post flop I think you'll lose money long term with a flat. A raise is an option but do you really want to get involved in a large pot with the best player on the table when there's opportunities to make large profits in safer spots??

I like calling pf. It's another $48 with more than $650 behind. We're in position. From Vs perspective, our opening range should look pretty wide. It looks like we're trying to isolate fish. A competent V could be 3-betting a lot more than QQ+ in this spot.

Position is huge in hands like this. This V sounds like he's capable of laying down some big hands on bad boards. We don't have to flop gin to win this pot. There's a ton of flops that could scare V.

what´s your open/calling range in this spot?

Vs the only other competent player at the table who cbets 90% of the time I'm not calling a large 3b with a hand you're only going to make TPTK with most of the time. I really only want to continue in this spot with pairs that can flop sets but even then you're not really getting odds to call, so in this specific setup, I don't think I have much of a range.