Bad Beat Forum is THAT WAY ------>

If the PR% at the table is high, I like the L/RR, but effective stacks of 250BB make the hand difficult to play if you miss the flop.

If the PFR% at the table is high (>40%) and my stack is 100BB, I am always L/RR UTG and UTG+1 with AK, JJ+.

But if the PF raiser is a rock with a PFR% of like 5%, I don't L/RR (ever). In this case, I'd slow play AA b/c rocks fold monsters when shown aggression.

As for the hand, I like your PF play, but OTF you should lead with a PSB.

I also agree with some other posters who have pointed out the inconsistency of your reads.

OK, that is fine. Are you going to answer my questions?

OP, poker thought process is off when you make a statement that a villain calls wider just because a fish called, then start placing villain on a super narrow range once the flop falls. You are envisioning the only hands that beat you being there and playing as if they were.

its almost like raising huge with AK, then flop A22 and check fold cause ur afraid if villain calls he has 2x.

The idea here is that we can forget this hand, but that thinking is going to seep thru every hand you ever play almost.

That's true. These thoughts spread through your mind like a cancer. Eventually cause your balls to fall off and a few days later you start posting about how you want to lay down middle set cuz villain obv has a strait.

I don't hate a LRR every so often with AK, but I think I'd rather do it with more on the line (say as in a straddled pot at a table that is most likely going to raise). As it so happens, things worked out perfectly here, so whatever.

Pot is huge and drawy and we've flopped TPTK. I just bet out looking to get it in now or on the turn. I'm not sure why we're checking, especially since pot control is out the window with this size pot / our stack size, and it would suck to give a free card on drawy board.

As played, this is the worlds easiest call. I mean, we have TPTK and we're getting far better than 2:1. What, are we thinking of folding?

GcluelessnoobG

OP, i'm glad you've given us some of your thought process, helps me get a better sense of your play and abilities.

I'm trying to help so please don't take this the wrong way but...

Your thought process is all fished up.

On one hand you say that V2 only called because V1 called, and then later, post flop all of a sudden you think V2 has QQ or AQ?

And then you say, "if V2 shoves, I might fold". WTF?

Look, the problem with fish is that their thoughts are binary. They can't help but think in terms of winning or losing the hand. They are incapable of thinking about hands in terms of probabilities and equity. When someone shoves, all the fish can see is monsters under the bed.

So, OP, look at this flop. What hands 'could' shove this flop?
Sure, a set could shove, but sets are not all that probable here. There are only 3 possible set combos, AA, QQ, and 77. So the only real set we have to worry about is 77 because AA and QQ would have resulted in different preflop action.

What other hands could shove here? Ax and the flush draw.
Those are MUCH MUCH more probable hand combos that can shove flop here.

Two pair is also possible but unlikely. AQ and A7 is a possibility, Q7 is remote.

Another shove possibility is complete air. This is always a possibility with Donks, LAGs, or Maniacs who sense weakness.

Add all this up, and you should have the most equity, 3way or 2way, in this pot. Probably 45% 3way and 65% 2way, which means you are the favorite to win here. So you should be happy to get money into the pot.

And this goes doubly so for villain's all in. The pot is BIGGER than villains all-in bet which means you are getting great odds.

So, to even entertain the thought of folding if both villains shoved is just plain wrong.

I know V2 doesn't have QQ or AQ....he 3 bets before I do with QQ and folds AQ knowing I likely have him dominated. V2 and I have played lots together and he knows my range here.

77 is a possibility for V2

I understand I sound 'all fished up' and as I read the whole thing back I see it now....guess that speaks to the fact is I truly didn't know where I was in the hand.

Lesson learned....I should have shipped it on the flop.

If villain is the type to flat a ton of 3 bets when IP, and then start bluffing or turning 33 into a bluff if we start checking, then c/r flop is totally great.

id call but im not happy about it

no **** but if you have the k i think this is a fold

how often is a limp/re-raise getting called by weaker hands pre? most live droolers thinks "oh its KK or AA" instead of "oh his limp/rr is bigger than KK+"

See results.

1 thand is a small sample size brohan. im not convinced.

Even if is is rare, which it is not, identifying those situations is pretty easy. In those cases l/rr is fine.

More often than you think.

If you reraise about the size of the new total pot, you usually get the desired effect. 1 or 2 callers that are still hoping to flop gin.

And in these cases, YES, they put you on AA, KK, AK but they still think they have 'pot odds' to call, flop gin and stack you. Also, note that the AK is bolded. A lot of players still like to 'hope' you have AK and will often stack off on low ball flops with their underpair because, "Hey I put you on AK". ESPECIALLY at 1/2NL or 1/3NL.

Seriously, there are plenty of donks and fish out there.

Dont make the mistake of thinking everyone thinks like you. Give your opponents the chance to make a mistake and many times they will. Hence limp reraise in early position when you are fairly confident someone will raise for you.

This is a very very basic standard move that is +EV.

If I had to put a stat on it based on my experience (I play 5 days a week).

I'd say, for a 7 way pot that went something like this.

UTG, limps
UTG+2 min raises 2BB, HJ, CO, BTN, SB, and BB call (12BB totals)

If UTG raises to 10BB, he will get 1-2 callers 60% of the time

If UTG raises to 12BB, he will get 1-2 callers 40% of the time

If UTG raises to 15BB, he will get 1-2 callers 30% of the time

If UTG raises to 20BB, he will get 1-2 callers 20% of the time

If UTG raises to 100BB, he will get 1-2 callers 5% of the time

Of course the stats are Hero image dependant. If you have shown one or two bluffs or have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar making a move, your call rate goes up. Conversely, if you are percieved as a nit the calls go down. The above stats are for a decent TAG and based on my experience.

...and if u miss the flop?

Don't limp-reraise!

THen you apply your POST flop skillz.

Incidentally, the vast majority of the times, we do miss the flop. I guess you are one of those players that just folds when you miss.

If so, that explains your comment
If not, then why did you post the comment?

but thats the opposite of what im doing, im not putting my thoughts in villain's head here. Im trying to divine villain's thought processes so to speak.

I am not staunchly opposed to limp/rr but game conditions must be optimal. I dont think a 1/2 game is aggressive enough with players responding properly often enough to a limp/rr to make it as profitable as straight raising. For a limp/rr to be profitable, you want villains to either A)fold when you limp/rr the bottom of your range or call with a wider range when you're closer to the top. to me the limp/rr is more about range manipulation. but at 1/2, they dont think like that often enough.

Post flop skills? What post flop skills do u need to play a $255 pot with one villain having $180 behind and effective stacks vs. the second villain being $365? If ur so fcuking skilled why are u taking away every advantage u have? Limp-reraising is stupid (no matter what 2Outs says) even with AA or KK but at least with those hands it's tolerable.

...and don't worry about my 'post flop skills,' I'm fine thx (<- typed this instead of telling u to go fcuk urself.)

I'm sorry. The bold is easily some of the worse advice i've ever heard in 2+2.

You don't think 1/2 is aggressive enough? WTF. Have you even played 1/2NL?

Its not about players being 'aggressive enough' though that helps. It's about players MAKING MISTAKES. And players at 1/2NL make TONS of mistakes.

Everytime I play 1/2NL I witness a WTF moment of utter stupidity. It never fails. I've seen people call river shoves for 100BB with the idiot end of a 4 card straight. I've seen people call 4 to a flush boards with top pair.... And i'm not talking about once in a blue moon, i'm talking about every single time I play the game. ANd i only play the game for like 20 minutes while I wait for a 2/5NL table to open up.

seriously, I don't mean to be an ass, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

So let me get this straight. You are oppossed to inflating a pot while you have the better hand, using fold equity to scoop up dead money, and narrowing the field from many villains to 1-2????

That is what limp reraising does. Whether I have AA or AK, it is not a bad play.

And my comments about limp reraising were in general (hence my example that was broken down into #BB). Nice try trying to twist it around. Sure, there are instances (especially when stack sizes aren't ideal) that limp reraising an incorrect amount can be a mistake.

But for you to argue that limp reraising in and of itself is a bad play is ridiculous.

Limp reraising is incredibly standard in certain spots, and for you to argue otherwise is just plain stupid and embarrassing.

no i never played 1/2, i went straight to 5/10.

I thought KUD's closing comment in his prior post was a bit harsh, but you're really coming off like a dickhead here lil' buddy.

1/2 players make tons of mistakes. Being overly aggressive is not one of them. At 2/5, there is nowhere near the necessary level of aggression either. (Pre flop at least).

Why do you think limping is ok live vs online? because there is not enough preflop raising.

now, go back and read my comment one more time and you can see my statements are conditional based upon game conditions.

Fold preflop

please to be describing the conditions for these spots?

My comment is simple. If you are fairly certain that you are going to get a raise, then limp reraising when you have a good hand is fine. Standard even.

At 1/2NL there are a lot of players that like to do the dink 'lets build a pot' raise. There are players that fashion themselves TAGs and raise 90% from HJ, CO, BTN. There are players where you notice that they raise every other hand...

So there is nothing wrong with limp reraising in these spots and it is just annoying to hear someone proclaim that limp reraising is just 'bad' so never do it.

The answer to any poker question is 'it depends'

And if i'm coming off as a dick its becuase i get annoyed when people make declaritive statements not based on fact.

Players don't have to be 'aggressive' to make limp reraising profitable. They only have to make mistakes. And at 1/2NL, you could sell mistakes for a penny a pound there are so many of them.

Having to argue this point is ridiculous. And that is why i'm annoyed.

Do you limp at a limpy table? No. Of course not. But if you are at a table where donks and fish are gamboooling it up and raising every other hand 2BB because 'hey lets build a pot' then why not take advantage of that? Or if you have a villain that is raising every time he is in Late position why not take advantage of that.

Again, this is all incredibly standard and I can't believe i have to argue this point on 2+2.

And if that makes me come across as a dick then fine. I'll be the dick.