If the math is saying to call, and you are agreeing with the math, then you should call! IMO

Before makin this post I had never used pokerstove. Now that the math is saying it was the correct call I have no problem doing it again time and time again.

In this case we have no idea how much longer he was going to be playing like a maniac. Villain was clearly upset someone was mid raising and figured no one was going to call.

Thx for all input.

FWIW the vast majority of "solid" ABC winning rec players share your philosophy. Tue whole "wait for a better spot" mantra is a rec players bread and butter.

Unfortunately, with this philosophy you will only be a breakeven or slightly winning player and I seriously doubt you could achieve a winrate beyond 8bb/hr at 1/2nl or 5bb/hr at 2/5nl and you definitely would never be a winning player at 5/10nl

In order to CRUSH the game you have to have a fearless +EV mindset that doesn't have an ounce of scared money in you.

Every single time I play I encounter dozens of situations where some ABC rec player is up against a maniac and the maniac is shoving and the ABC player has mid pair or even top pair and says "i know I got you beat, I know I'm ahead, I know you are drawing...but I'm gonna wait for a better spot" and then he folds over and over and over again.

I'm just saying, if you are comfortable being a rec player playing for fun and being a slight winner or breakeven player, then fine, fold and keep waiting for that "better spot". But if you want to CRUSH the game for 10bb+/hr then you've got to learn how to become a ruthless +EV player that can adjust and do whatever the situation requires.

Making these sorts of calls has other ramifications to your winrate. After the table sees you make this call, how likely is someone gonna try and bluff you?

What does this call do to your image? How will effect your action when you raise, 3bet, or shove? How will it impacts villains ability to accurately read you.

When you make these sorts of calls there are a host of other benefits that indirectly lead to you getting paid off and/or villains making mistakes against you.

For instance, game is 2/5nl I'm UTG+1 w 88 and limp, MP loose aggro player makes it 30, 5 callers, straddler aggro donk makes it $200, I shove for $700, MP folds, folds to straddler who snap calls .

Straddler had AJs
My 88 holds up and the entire table thinks I'm a donk when in reality I knew straddler would shove with a wide range and that I'm likely flipping with tons of dead money in the pot.

2 orbits later I get AA UTG and I open to $75 and get called by 2 players.
Flop is super safe something like 3 3 7 r
I shove $1.2k and get snapped called by both players. One had JJ the other had QQ and my AA holds.

And the reason they snap called me for 200bb ridiculous overbet was because of how I played that other hand.

I want to thank you for taking the time and effort in sharing your live poker knowledge. you are def the poster I look for in every thread while trying to improve my game. please keep it up

+1

Before this hand the OP doesn't report seeing one instance of his shoving with a weak hand. Now we come to this hand and you decide that you'll make a call with an expected value 0.5% of 265? Does that even pay for the rake?

To me the morale of this story is that if you have a good hand several times in a row it's time to shove because no one will believe you.

We should let OP decide if that range looks accurate or not, as he played with villain for over an hour. I agree that 2 open shoves a maniac does not make, but OP must have had some sort of read that A8 was likely good there.

Villain was involved in more than 50% of the pots and not afraid of calling draws without getting the proper odds. If I recall correctly he was involved in a significant pot which he lost. As stated someone midraised to 6 which is odd and he shoved about $120 into a $20 pot. The next hand same player mid raises again and villan shoves for about $140 into $20 pot. At this point I believe he is literally shoving with any two cards(which he did with 57off). I was last to act with a8 and believed I was ahead(which I was).

I guess there are those players who would prefer to wait for a better spot and not take such a risk. The problem is a better spot may not come.

Okay. I understand and agree. How ever I've got one question and sorry for taking over the thread. But does it change at all if I mention I am always 200bb at least? I can agree to call a 30Bb shove with A8, but what about 200bb.

Loooooool. If you fold here when villain shows his hand you may as well leave and never play again. "Waiting for a better spot" is one of the biggest myths in poker. In a cash game, you should seize any +EV opportunity, no matter no small, and accept the variance, and when that "better spot" comes along, you seize it too.

Again. If you are properly rolled, variance shouldn't be an issue. Snap call day and live with it.

Okay thank you. I play with 40 100bb buyins for our 2/2 game where I am from. But I have never been thinking about these kind of spots in the way most of you do. I am properly rolled I think I just don't like to "gamble" if I may say it like that. But I won't disagree with the majority. So ignore what I said and thanks again.

Gambling to me is betting on something where you have no edge or even a coin flip(literally tossing a coin). In poker I would like to believe I have an edge over the villains in my table.

Too many assumptions about this player. If he's actually not a maniac but establishing a maniacal image than this is what he wants - a call from A8 off. OP says he has been playing "very loose" - but in the one example he gives he doesn't show down his cards. So you're basing this analysis on a player who we know nothing about other than he seems "loose" to the OP - which to me has no meaning. Good poker players (even at these stakes) can create a desired table image. In addition - even maniacs get hands. So just because he may have bluffed the six times before does not mean that he doesn't have the hand this time. If you are shoving your max 40 BB stack in every time you were getting these pot odds just because we have a perceived maniac than (IMHO) you are essentially gambling your chips away. We a dog even in many of the hands you say are in his range (66) and only a slight favorite in some others (J10) and totally crushed by his upper range (A10+). If you just want to flip for your money go spin the wheel. There are many better spots to get your stack in against a maniac (real or created image) and A8 off is not one of them. All of which (IMHO) makes your +EV analysis instantaneously suspect.

Sometimes I like to imagine I'm superman and can fly.

[ ] Understands the concept of range.

Really, really stop limping A8 off before you worry about anything else!

Sure you may have an edge, but you have to be beyond godlike to have a big enough edge to actually sustain a reasonable winrate at 40BB max when you factor in the rake.

I agree, it is extremely difficult but it was the only available option in my area(hustler, commerce, garden). With blinds of 1/3 and maximum buy in of $100.

I recently discovered a max buy in of $300 with blinds of 2/3(bike). With a few tweaks to my game because I was used to playing short stacked, I hope to beat the game at a higher rate.

Sidenote: The first hand I ever played at the $300 game I lost my whole stack.

That first hand thing sucks. As long as it was reasonably +EV though, don't feel bad about it. Many more pokers will be in your future.

You are all ignoring a major argument for calling.

Before I continue, this is just theoretical, I don't play in low capped buy in games since, thank the gods of poker, they are not played on the east coast.

But in theory,(from reading) if you have a small +ev it becomes critical in these games to call in order to build a stack. The sooner you build a stack the sooner you can play deeper stack where your skill can be used...

IF you have a deep stack you don't want to call in marginal positions since loosing the deep stack hearts your win rate as you can no longer take full advantage of your skill.

If he is just a maniac, then easy call. But if he is a "thinking" maniac, the second shove will be with a much better hand as he is using his image to his advantage. In this case, he is just a maniac.

I have called in similar spots for 200bb and have been happy with my decision and have folded a smallish pair for 40 or so BB.

It is player and situation specific.