This is the first hand in a live $1/2 nlhe game. Stacks are ~$200 for all players in a 9 handed game.

MP1 and MP2(HJ) limp, you look down and see A4 in the cutoff.

What is the optimal play?

My thoughts...

I don't really like raising here. You have 3 people still behind you, and the limps by MP1 and MP2 lead me to assume they are typical loose/passive players who are somewhat likely to call your raise and be sticky postflop, so your CBet not as likely to work. You're also not likely to make much money if you do hit your ace...it either being a scare card, or you being outkicked.

I don't really like calling although it seems better than raising. I don't think this would be a huge mistake either though. Someone wrote (I think it was Harrington) that it was your job to see lots of cheap flops. I generally agree with that, but this hand seems more troublesome than likely to hit hard (2 pair or straight), and hard to make money if you do hit with the ace being a scare card. Definitely worth a limp if suited though. With this A4 hand I think you are mostly just burning money. How many $2 hits are you gonna take on average before you finally hit AND also get paid off?

The only option left is folding. I think this would be the optimal play for a tighter (aka my own) playstyle.

Super easy answer. Folding pre is much more optimal. If it was A-4s i could see a limp or a raise (I'd probably limp as long as the rake is only 10% where youre playing) since the implied odds of hitting the nut flush cause your hand value to soar since youre going to extract 3 streets of value by a lower flush (you'll probably stack lower flushes a good % of the time) and might get paid off by all sorts of other hands.

Just remember, when you limp with a hand like A-4s in a multiway pot, we're looking to flop two pair or better. Don't go crazy when you flop an ace; you only have a 4 kicker with it. Oftentimes I'll just fold the flop if somebody bets $10 on an A-9-5 board, since we pretty much only beat K-9, but more likely are up against a bigger ace.

id probably fold pre. its a tuff hand against limpers

A4s is worth limping and hoping you can flop/turn gin

but A4o is a super easy snap fold pre AINEC

folding > raising > calling imo.

You have no idea how they play both preflop and post flop. So, you really have no idea why you are doing things with bad hands at this point. Ie, can't say "I'm raising pre because they call a lot preflop and fold a lot postflop.".

Calling just sucks because A4o sucks postflop.

This, 100%.

fold A4o pre almost always. The second best option is raising but I would only do this if I am feeling super LAGtastic or the table is good for it. I never ever call pre with A4o in this spot.

Super easy fold.

Cool, sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.

You guys really prefer raising 2 (probably) sticky limpers over just calling behind though?

folding >>>>>>>>>> raising >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling

id limp and hope for 2 pair.

Don't raise in LLSNL; your villain calling range dominates the crap out of you.
Just fold it. Weak aces are awful in LLSNL. I'd suggest limping all low suited Aces here, and not consider playing an offsuit A until AJo+ at which point you can raise. When playing a low suited A in LLSNL, think of it like PLO--you're looking to make the nuts (which in nlh is 2pair+)

Raising 4/5s > playing A4o here

Assume multi-way in LLSNL games, and play hands that play well to multi-way action (as always, read the magnum opus for the strat: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-easy-1021276/)

Even then you're not gonna get stacks from someone unless they limped AK. Then you still have to dodge some outs for it to hold up against AK.
Trashy hands like A4o pretty bad.
Folding here for sure.
A4s I snap limp haha.

I would basically never play A9o- here (which is <<< my cutoff hand of ATo due to straight making potential against top two pair type hands). I don't like raising as there are already 2 people interested in the pot plus 3 still yet to act behind us; the chances of this going 4way to a raised flop are pretty decent. These hands also never flop any decent draw (no flush draw, no OESD). So we basically have to flop two pair / trip 9's before we ever get paid off (and yet still run into occasional counterfeit situations / bigger hands).

The only time I consider playing A9o- is when there is 0/1 limper to me on the Button with tightish blinds, in which case I'm raising and looking to win the pot with a cbet. Or perhaps on the Button if a light opener opened in LP I might consider light 3betting. Otherwise, muck, next hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I guess it doesn't matter anyway since we should usually/always be folding in this spot, but I don't really understand why raising would be that much better than limping.

Limping risks $2 to try to flop the nuts. Raising risks $10-$12ish PF and possibly another $12+ post for a CBet. So, we're risking ~$24ish to buy position and initiative? Seems like a lot higher variance and also creates a bad image (imo...I want people to respect my raises and CBets) if the hand does get showndown.

I'm not trying to argue or anything. I'm sure you guys have a lot more experience than me. I'm just trying to understand better.

Thanks,
-TG

if we raise we probably go to the flop HU or 3 ways and take the pot down with a cbet. this is the case with ATC.

i think we make more money doing that than limping and folding 90% of flops, stacking AJ villain 5% of the time and losing our stack to better 2p/sets 5% of the time.

Ya, I suppose it makes sense that you'd be able to win more+bigger pots when you raise+cbet (probably>50%?), and you are much more likely to get stacked than do the stacking in a MW limped pot. I guess risking more $$$ up front is actually less risk...in a way.