$2-5, 7 handed, roughly 900-950 eff villain covers.

I've been at the table for about an hour and obsevered villain was quite active either opening or 3betting.

One of the hand that went to show down villain showed 43s, opened from +1 or mp. From the hour or so I've been at the table villain seems like he at least thinks more than the mouth breathers that are usually at the table and some what takes his time before making decisions. Villain seems like he's in his late 20s, early to mid 30s if that matters to you.

On to the hand, two ep players limp, v makes it 30, h 3b to $125, folds back to v, h calls hu.

Q1. Do you raise bigger or smaller as a 3b pre?

Flop (260): KcTs7h
V checks

V range should contain both sets of TT/77, all pairs other than AA/KK, some AK since we have Ace blocker and 1 K is on board, KQ, KJ, QJs, ATs, JTs, possibly KTs, T9.

This is my first 3b, so my perceived range is more nutted than his with KK/AA, AK, KQ, TT in range. I shouldn't have 77 or KT (i likely 3b KTs some of the time though).

Q2. Since this flop hits both of our ranges respectively, do we play exploitively and bet when we don't have it (in this case) and have a mix strat when we do have it (AA, KK, AK, KQ, TT). I think KK and AA we can even check back some % of the time.

Q3. Having the bdfd, does that make it easier to cbet and if you are cbetting, what's the sizing?

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To answer all of your questions I think 3 bet sizing is fine, if anything too big; just range bet 1/3

3 bet sizing is OK. The most important thing would be to compare it to other raises and 3 bets you have made, it's more likely to stand out for being too big then anything.

On the flop give up fairly often. This flop hits both of your ranges and you have nothing but some back door draws. Bet $130 when you do bet, play it like you had AK and want good value without driving villain away. Do you have any idea how often villain calls 3 bets? If villain is sticky with weaker hands and thus less likely to hit this then you could c-bet as much as 1/2 of the time. If villain's range is mostly strong hands limit yourself to c-betting 1/4 of the time.

If you are playing small sized range betting games then mostly bet this for $80.

On this flop that there is both a K and a T is more important then your back door draws. Both are likely in calling hands that that forces you to cut down your c-betting rate.

3bet sizing is ok at this depth, if we were <700 effective i'd prefer smaller.

Rangebetting 1/3 seems like burning money. Villain has a lot of continues and the few hands that we could fold out like underpairs might actually stick around for a 1/3 bet.

I'm checking this flop with a decent part of my range (KK/QQ/JJ/99/Tx/AQ), but this combo seems like a good candidate to start betting big, along with AK+. Never checking back AA. Betting 200, jamming assorted turns.

Here's the thing guys, we can get value from his open enders and some of his gutshots (acknowledging that some beat us) and also fold out all pairs 66 and below.

^Actually, the thing is that at this stackdepth, he shouldn't be folding his gutshots anyway, even when we bet big.

A lot of people WILL fold AJ/AQ here off course vs a big bet, giving us fold equity that we shouldn't have.
(And I'd guess that smaller sizings induce the occasional x/raise as well, which is obviously not good for us either.)

And again, we are also missing out on value when we do have 'it'. Considering we have a range and nut advantage on this board, not going bigger sizing seems bad for multiple reasons.

I am playing the way I would w/ AA, AK and maybe KK and betting ~$150. If you are perceived as fairly tight, he's folding a lot (good), and I doubt he tries to bluff, so if he raises, he's got something good. Evaluate turn.

I think checking here is just giving up, and I don't see the point of 3betting this hand if that's our plan on this flop, which usually hits a tight 3bet.

Agree with this. Not a big fan of the 1/3 bet range in these spots. We dont get proper value when we are strong, and we dont get fold equity neede when we are weak/bluffing.

Much prefer larger sizings at somewhat lower frequenzies here, to both get fat value when we are good and put pressure when we are blufing.

On this board with this combo, I’m strongly considering a triple barrel. Especially on turned Q/J/♥️


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This is a quote you made on December 5th, 2019 in a thread you started about range betting. Curious as to why you have made such a 180 in your thinking in a year's time.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...ation-1757920/
Post #15

FWIW there’s been a lot of strategic content that has arisen from the proliferation of solvers. Pretty sure lots of people are thinking about poker in January 2021 differently than they did in December 2019 if they’re studying and working hard


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Downbetting makes sense on dry boards that have very few straight draws and no flush draw. Something like K94r or 772r. On this board most hands make a pair or straight draw so it doesn’t make sense to me to bet under half pot

A coach changed my mind. People call way too wide pre, and when we bet 1/3, they need to defend 75% of the time to make auto c betting unprofitable. They won't. People just can't do anything about having air besides folding or spazzing out. Spazzing out isn't even that bad because we bet 1/3 with our nutted hands, too, and have easy call downs. We can also call with top pair, and a lot of the times worse because the raises won't make sense. A lot of times people will only spazz out for 1-2 streets anyways. When people spazz out and we don't have a good time, it's fine, because our hand isn't good and we can just fold. Also, when people see us doing this with our whole range they'll start folding a lot more often and stop spazzing, and we'll be able to just print with our air.

I know when I started betting smaller, fish saw the bet as “he’s just trying to buy the pot” and correctly began responding with more aggression. Running bad and getting check raised multiple times is annoying, especially if 1-2 of those times were with hands where a more chunky cbet would’ve discouraged a bluff raise and you’d have won the pot.

But as an over-simplification of an optimal strategy, it’s pretty good. And sometimes they’ll put in a ton of money with very weak hands.


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Are you playing for a living these days?

Nope. Just a working stiff now.

But I’m actually agreeing with you. It’s easy to be results oriented when our c-bets “don’t work”. But risking less when we don’t have it and still having the opportunity to hammer when we do is nice.

Like take KT7. What if turn is a blank, like a 5? That small c-bet that didn’t get big value with our TT or AA or AK, we can now go ahead and bomb turn.


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In retrospect I think my 3b sizing is slightly too large, but I think I rather bet slightly bigger than too small especially this being this first aggressive action being taken vs villain. In the future I think 3-3.5x is fine, 4x at this stack depth might be a bit too large.

I think you addressed the 1/3rd psb in replies later. But, imo, I don’t think this particular texture is the best two down bet. Smaller bet will encourage too much of his QQ/JJ, 88/99, maybe even smaller pairs to continue in addition to some Tx, and QJ which will get a cheaper draw. Do I expect most of that range to fold to a “standard bet?” I’m not sure, but It think in general a bigger/normal bet produces more folds than smaller bets particularly on this texture.



This is the first 3b vs villain, so no other 3b sizing to compare to. You said give up on this flop often which I would agree with if villain and I had played 3b pots previsouly and some meta had developed. But, because this is the first 3b, and we have the range/nut advantage, don’t we continue the aggression? If the board contained no hearts I would consider checking back and giving up. Even w/o a heart I think I continue with a c-bet.


I would check back KK/QQ/JJ, 88/99 would be a split between checking and betting. I’m not sure at what frequency I would c-bet 88/99. Why is AA always a bet? We’re blocking AK (only 6 combos left), the worst card in the deck is likely a Q or another K on the turn which I’m not too worried about. I don’t think AA is never a check back, I would check it sometimes.

Names some turns you’re jamming if we cbet flop?



Can you elaborate on why villain shouldn’t be folding his AQ/AJ even when we size up?


I agree that checking back with this candidate after 3 betting pre is giving up. And, I can’t exactly say how I was perceived by villain. The only action he must’ve saw was where h x/r on A82ccx board but that hand didn’t go to show down. If I had to guess, I’d said he knows I’m a thinking player based on demeanor, how much I bought in for etc. I can be certain he knows I’m a thinking player but dunno about loose/tightness



What size do you bet on the flop? Keep in mind a half pot c-bet makes SPR around 1 on the turn.



Don’t think we’re deep enough to triple off unless we bet start off with like 80-100 on the flop, maybe go for 150-180 on the turn and ship for 450-500is on the river? Dunno, what sizing are you suggesting for a triple barrel and on what run out?



Did your coach and you discuss player pool calling too wide in 3b pots or in single raised pots? Same question for player pool x/r when they’re spazzing out, single raised or 3b pots?




Maybe the times you got x/r they opponents just had it? For you to see a correct adjustment by a player at 1-2, 2-5 they have to be one of the top winning players in the room. If a non-thinking player is x/r I suspect they likely just had it? Could be wrong tho.

I would bet around half pot here on the flop, or even 60-70 percent against some villains and if we had more behind in our stack. That would generate alot of folds against most villains right there. If we do get called i am jamming good turns, mostly all heart turns where we turn the nut flush draw.

I think the 3B sizing is too large, but w/e.

Flop - I like a range bet for ~1/2 PSB. If called, X back a lot.

AA should be our prime betting hand. It unblocks Kx and Tx and blocks those A high hands that we think he is folding. Haven't done the math, but i'd guess it has a higher EV than KT or even KK on this board.

Also look at how many showdownish hands we check back, and how many of our remaining range wants/needs to bluff. If we are also checking back AK/AA at whatever frequency, we reduce our overal range's equity when we do bet, on a board where villain has a lot of continues. That's not good.

Replace those potential 88/99 cbets with your AA checkbacks and see your winrate skyrocket, imo.

2 through 6's, hearts other than the Q or J. Basically, blanks. Vs described villain i'm probably jamming quite often, vs a more standard ABC reg i'd probably select more strictly, maybe just hearts.

-Villain has a draw to the nuts with an SPR>3
-Mostly really good implied odds when he does hit, ie Hero has a lot of TPTK+.
-his overcard may be live
-Villain blocks some of the stronger value AA/AK/KQ
-Villain is sometimes ahead, as he is here.
-these hands make decent river bluffs if turn gets checked through.

To be clear, vs a standard 2/5 tagfish 3bettor, he is likely correctly folding those gutshots against a big bet.

But vs a capable/non-nit player 3betting BTN vs CO, i'm absolutely peeling here in villains shoes, probably up to 3/4 PSB.

Both; both

My exact holding falls under the few pure bluffs I have (A2-A5s). QJ, AQ, AJ would likely be the only semi bluffs I have. I think on this texture I likely fire with most of this range most of the time. I’m not suggesting checking back AA is correct, just acknowledging that that’s one of the few hands we can check because I’m not too concerned about too many turn cards. At the table I think I’m betting AA close to 100% frequency.


I did not consider your point about how much of a range villain has to continue given SPR is around 3.5, and he’ll be blocking some of my nutted range. That’s something I’ll consider int eh future when deciding if we need to put in money with this part of my range.

You’re shipping range neutral cards (2 through 6s), and hearts bringing us back door equity. If we cbet and the turn is a T/J/Q/K, are we giving up?

I decided to cbet 130

- H has range and nut advantage
- Betting keeps my range uncapped
- I'd c-bet most Kx, KK, TT, AA, etc etc
- And I can barrel hearts almost always, and maybe even range neutral cards.


villain takes about 10-15 seconds and call

Turn (580): 5
Villain checks, we have a little over psb left. H ships or check back and take equity with possibly 12 total outs if we're against AQ, KQ, QQ/JJ, maybe some Tx, or lower pp, QJs. I cannot confirm for a fact if AQ/AJ continues.

FWIW, regardless of whether villain takes time between decisions, when you see him showing 43s that he raised from UTG+1 or MP, this tells us he's raising way too wide; I don't think that's an exploitative adjustment on his part. I think he's too loose.

That to me is an indication he's calling 3bets too wide, so I am leaning towards playing a linear 3betting range.

I like the 1/2 pot bet and I am somewhat indifferent between checking and shoving turn.

We should mostly be playing a linear 3 bet range anyway, unless we know our opponent is exploitatively tight against 3 bets (I’ve played in games where this action is common: raise to 20, 3 bet to 60, original raiser folds JJ face up). If someone is too loose, add more hands to your 3 bet range to take advantage of it. But like, if ATs is the bottom of a 3 bet range vs a HJ open from BTN for you, expand it to like A9s and A5s. Too many people will try to adjust by just 3 betting random crap.


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