$2/5 NL (4 handed)


Button ($900) - Raises to $20

Small blind ($425) - Calls

Big blind Hero ($covers) - Calls extra $15 with 88



Flop ($55) JJJ

SB villan donks $40



Hero?

It has been said that good players will fold the best hand sometimes. How should I proceed, what do I beat, am I good etc?

Never Ever Ever fold here.

I would be thinking about how to maximize with the best hand. Depending on how Villain pays off versus how Villain bluffs off, I lean towards raising small or just calling.

Since your read was tight-straightforward, I just call.

Call.

My initial reaction was "call, duh!", but upon reflection I'm not so sure.
The fact that he is tight-straightforward makes me more inclined to raise than were he aggro and/or tricky, actually. If he's aggressive then there's more value in bluffcatching, and a raise/fold line also runs the risk of getting 3-bet bluffed. But because he's tight and straightforward, a lot of his range here will be small PPs, and it might be better to raise/fold flop with the intention of checking behind the turn if he's more likely to call a smallish flop raise than bet or call a bet on the turn when an overcard comes.

Also I have to worry about the PFR behind me, true im beating small PP. 22-77. I'm losing to 99-10's. Im ahead of overcards.... hmmm

It's close but I lean towards folding just because of button behind us. I also don't think it's horrible to call and see what button does and what happens on turn but for me I'm just gonna fold and wait for a better spot.

Anyone ever raise pre here?

Not unless he calls 3-bets super light or you've 3-bet him enough times that he'll start doing so. In the vast majority of situations, 3-betting pre will be overplaying your hand (or, more accurately, turning it into a bluff when there's a lot of value to be had by playing it straightforwardly and calling; I'd rather run a bluff squeeze with a worse hand that we can't profitably call with).

I forgot the button was behind us postflop; that definitely makes me want to call more than raise.

Assuming a pretty tight range for the SB (PP, Aces, Faces)

*******Equity*****Win*****Tie
BU*****23.98%**21.94%***2.04%*{ 33+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
SB*****39.87%**37.65%***2.22%*{ 44+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }
BB*****36.15%**35.15%***1.01%*{ 88 }

So I don't really like your position, especially given that PFR has yet to act.

In any situation, given those ranges, you definitely don't want to see a broadway card hit the turn/river.

I'm min raising.

If the button stays around and/or we get 3-bet, hit the eject button.

That button range is way way too tight and the SB range is too loose, both preflop and because he's probably not bluffing missed high cards very often in a 3-way pot given our read that he's straightforward.

I think I 3-bet in that spot is great. Your playing 4-handed and he's going to be raising a lot of buttons so you should be 3-betting often (I mean often relative to a 9 max game). 8-8 is a pretty sound hand to 3-bet 4 handed - granted you need to have some experience playing the mid pairs oop but still I like the spot.

As far as the flop - I agree with the call but never ever ever fold to just that sb bet. I think sb will lead out more often with 22-77 more often than 99-aa. The pairs above 8s all have to much c/r value whereas it feels more like a feeler bet with something like 4's.
Also I don't know if I would fold to a button re-raise either. That's such a great spot to reraise with any 2 face cards.

Anyone else have opinions if we call the sb bet then see a raise to from the button to 200 - i think you need to have that plan in mind if we just call?

It depends on your dynamic with villain. I agree that 4-handed you should be 3-betting often, and if you've already been doing so, you can probably 3-bet him with 88 here because he'll call you with a wide range that you are ahead of. But if haven't started the heavy 3-betting yet,then I wouldn't start here, because his calling range will still be tight enough that it's crushing 88. Start with a polarized range and then widen your value range as he adjusts to it.

this is good and the most suitable decision imo

Thanks for the input, in game I decided to wait for a better spot because I felt like it was bleeding money if I called the $40 and villan behind called or raised to put me in a tough spot.

I'm not folding the flop when you only lose to 12 combos of 99s or TTs based on pre flop action.

I don't like the fold either, ill chaulk it up to being the tail end of a 17 hour session.

I think call/fold/raise are all options here, and I actually hate call the most. It allows the button too much freedom to take control of the hand. If he puts in a big raise you can't continue with the hand. I'm raising to about $100. If button comes along then you can obviously check/fold the rest of the way because we do not have the best hand. I put the straightforward SB on a pocket pair 10s or lower, or maybe a jack. Either way, if he calls flop, he is going to check the turn to you and you can check it behind and get to the river. On river, unless he has the jack, I doubt that he is betting and will likely check it to you once more. You can either check it back or put in a thin value bet of $125 or so. I also think with this line you do not have to be afraid when big cards come out on later streets. SB is floating with two big cards almost never. If you just flat, and button happens to flat behind you, now those cards become pretty bad for your hand.

In short, I think raising on the flop is the best way to avoid getting blown off your hand and making it to showdown for relatively cheap.

Anyone folding this 4 handed should not be playing 4 handed. Ez call. Here's why..we have an aggro btn, if sb flopped a monster, he would almost certainly allow btn to fire. His donking range is mostly PPs we crush...they are drawing to runner runner quads, or a running chop.

If the pfr has broadway cards, he drawing to 6 outs...I'm fine flatting the flop. If the pfr flats, he prob has overs, if he raises, ez fold...not a tough spot when you call.

Regarding 3b pre...88 has too much value to 3b/f here, plus we have 2 customers so we can setmine more profitibly and get value on low boards / boards with 1 over. Also, we have an aggro pfr, let's not take the initiative away with a middle value hand..keep his bluffs in. Let's 3b him with a polarized range...67s / AA. We also close the action, so let's take a flop and small ball the snot outta these goons.

6 outs? What am I missing?

AK type hands have 3 aces + 3 kings + 1 jack. Whoops, 7 outs.

So three questions:

1) What's the plan if PFR flats, a blank comes, and SB donks again?

2) What's the plan if PFR flats, a broadway comes, and SB donks again?

3) Do you think a min-raise on the flop drives PFR out with his overcards?

i'm confused, tight-straightforward doesn't really lead here iyam...

The way to success in poker is not about playing marginal situations correctly(impossible to get all decisions right imo) but how to avoid as many close, marginal situation as possible.

This is a situation where it is really marginal. This is a good flop for AQ type of hand to lead into esp since he might hv outs to the nuts. However, he could also have a higher pocket pair than 99.

Given that the game is 4 handed, with 88, why don't u 3 bet preflop for value n further narrow the hand ranges?

It will be so much easier to play this hand if u had 3 bet preflop. Simply take the bet/fold line in this situation n give up if u meet any resistance...

This is such an easy 3-bet.
Buttons range is so wide he'll give away most hands to a 3-bet. SB 99.9% always has a small pocket pair here and you're way ahead of his range, (he flatted preflop 22-99/TT). Most times button will fold and sb will call your 3-bet.
Now you have position, aggression, a favourable hand and few scare cards. Winner?

Conventional squeezing wisdom states that button will be more likely to call your 3-bet than SB, especially given the positional concerns.

I agree that 3-betting here as a bluff is probably profitable. but that's true with pretty much ATC; are you going to 3-bet him every single time? Especially 4-handed where this situation is going to come up a lot, the other players will quickly adjust to that. That's why it's best to 3-bet hands that you can do so with for value, call with hands you can do so with profitably but cannot 3-bet for value (88 falls into this category, and the call is so obviously profitable that it might be more +EV than the bluff-3bet even in a vacuum, although that's difficult to quantify), and 3-bet bluff with the best hands that aren't good enough to call with. This type of polarization maximizes the value you get from your entire range. And as I've been hammering home in this thread, once villains start adjusting to your high 3-bet frequency, then you can start 3-betting hands like 88, and it will be for value.