Well.....for one, I have countless threads here where everyone is shouting oh no we cant fold KK pre, OMG that is crazy, no way blah blah. Every freakin time the result has been KK or AA in villains hands. I just wonder when the masses of players start looking at results when you have the same result over and over and over again. Results DO MATTER after a boatload of the same situation.

Just off the cuff I would say out of the last 20 threads like this that I have responded to fold, about one of them was some weirdo move, and the other 19 was KK or AA. These hands are exactly what the villain represents. Plain and simple. Not that my opinion weighs anymore than anyone else here at all, just put me in the fold category "once again".

The facts justify a fold, not to mention two tons of threads along this same vein which have resulted in folds being correct.

It is funny though that the pet project of mine is to see how many players (very good players) fall victim to my number one poker mistake of all time "They call when they should fold". If you put your game under a microscope and really examine the spots where you called , but should have folded, you will up your game considerably I promise.

I've experienced where someone limp/4bet and in that case, the guy had QQ! Also, given the nature of threads here, usu whenever someone starts one, they either think that they played it poorly and/or lost the hand, so the results for AA/KK are quite skewed. Additionally, you state that of the 19, it was either AA or KK, so Hero would be folding out what should have been a chop in some cases.

I'm nowhere near as experienced as you and many others on this board, but I only made one pf fold of KK which was the right choice during my short career thus far. I just don't see it being an obvious fold here for Hero, rather, it is an obvious shove imho.

So you would flat instead of fold? I don't get it, if you're so certain it's AA why wouldn't you fold?

Seriously, WTF kind of advice is this? Fold but we are confident we have the best hand? Pro tip, that's called a 3bet 4bet, 5bet, shove, OOP.


Players don't typically post obvious results, of course you'd be correct in assuming that an unusual situation motivated the poster from creating the thread in the first place.

*If you didn't have a coaching listing here I wouldn't have taken the time to respond to this but since you do IMO your advice is horrible. (as it pertains to this thread.)

Clearly you do not understand. I would fold to the first 195. This is a 1-2 game and we have a tight image and this guy just put $200 in the pot as a third raise after limping utg. If you want to call this, well certainly be my guest. You will look at kk or AA literally every time.

The part about occasionally folding the best hand is a very high level concept that i just do not have time to explain right now. Our implied odds are diminished greatly UNLESS the villain is an idiot and does this with TT JJ etc. I say he almost never does this. But you are entitled to your opinion. In this case the villain has the hand like 99% so that concept doesnt even enter into the picture hardly at all.

Note: (I never said fold if i was confident i had the best hand. To be clear i was meaning that fold--realizing that every now and then i am folding the best hand.)

If we make it $475 and he shoves, what does he have? Are we just calling because it's LOL LIVE and we don't feel like folding Kings?

QQ-AA, AKs. V sounds like a young aggro player, I'm not folding KK here. OP almost got V to fold if he was tanking that long because he probably thought that hero had the AA. I've seen aggro players get AKs in PF for 200bb plenty of times.

Just out of curiosity, how many times have you seen it for over 500bb? Since that is what in effect it is to a 1-2 player who never thinks about the straddle as halving the stacks. How many players here see 1-2 players putting $1000 at risk with less than KK very often if ever?

Depends how big this game plays. If players are straddling every hand and it's effectively a 1/2/5 game with people buying in for $500+ then I would say it's probably not all that uncommon....if it's just a regular 1/2 game with the occasional straddle and a max BI of $200-300 then that's a different story. Judging from this post and his other post about playing AA with 800bb deep, it sounds like this casino allows players to buy in uncapped or with higher caps than other casinos, so the games probably play a lot deeper on average than your regular $1/2 game with $300 max BI.

KK is the bottom of his range for getting in and a generalization without much reads is:

A. Better players are more likely to have a slightly wider range, but if they are actually good they aren't spazzing against a random with QQ this deep.

B. Bad players are bingo players and rarely get it in preflop with worse then AA and nearly never worse than KK even at smaller stacks.

C. We have to be quite confident our villain is a complete spewtard to make this a profitable preflop Allin, which seems unlikely in this situation especially without history or dynamic

D. Limp reraises are notoriously weighted heavier to AA and KK because fish notice that no one 3bs preflop, and limp reraising gets them the chance of getting that extra bet in before the flop. Its so obvious when it happens, I sometimes can't restrain my laughter when ppl at my table don't realize this.

How often do younger players playing 1/2 PLO on their ipad who are probably viewed as aggro limp-reraise though? That's an old man coffee move. Maybe he was playing 1/2 play money PLO...

Give me a break. Regardless of the fact that it's an unorthodox hand with the $5 blind as opposed to $1-$2, I doubt anyone here could name three times in their life they've seen someone get $1000+ in $1-$2 NL in the middle preflop with anything other than AA or KK.

One additional note would be that how a person plays this hand isnt life changing since it comes up pretty rarely. I am a nitpick to get things spot on and thus i argue the point (and still do).

How you screw up quads wont make much difference in your overall results but i cant help but think if a person doesnt get the real close decisions correct, then many other decisions will fall thru the cracks as well.

This exact rival topic has been beat to death and there will be the two sides always it seems. EAch must live with their results thus the beauty of a one man individual sport.

Lee Jones just pmed me demanding a royalty payment.

Really understanding that took me 5 years and was the biggest difference in turning me from mediocre player to a good player. And yeah, a l/4bet is AA or KK in LLSNL. In Sol Readers' games, it can be wider, but we don't play in those games.

There's a name for players who can't fold a potentially winning hand:

Villain has 22s Trying to steal the pot go all in

Well, Hero has KK here and you said V in that situation either has AA/KK, so Hero would be folding out the best/tying hand in some cases.

Not sure about your spoiler, that's not what I would call Hero in this situation. Calling stns are morons who'll call w/ anything that does not remotely come near to be the winning hand. KK in pf action definitely doesn't qualify.

Yes, if you are going to have to call off 1000 starting at a 195 raise, then sometimes you will split. RARELY you will have kk vs kk. the rest of the time u get crushed by AA. Overall thats a huge loser, so im hoping you are not making a case to call because you cant stand the thought of folding a chop once in a great while.

I understand sometimes the need to be conservative if we're sitting w/ huge effective stacks, but this situation (esp w/ this V) doesn't seem like a good fold.

I'm surprised At all the people saying to 4bet and get it in. This is a clear spot to 5bet small to $310 and fold to a 6bet. You will get flatted by QQ, JJ, AK and 6betted by AA

wtf? just dump off $310 and fold all our equity?

This is awful advice - do not do this ever.

you need to call $740 more to win an $2100+ pot so you have to be good 30 - 35ish% of the time to break even.

If you plan on folding don't bet so big. And sometimes the QQ won't flat - he will get it in. And what if villain has the other KK?

Personally in this spot I most likely just fold - Im not putting in $310 and than folding though