Ok so I was having an argument with a fellow 2p2er and it led to him suggesting I start a thread/poll on here and see what ppl think.

We play together in a live 5/5 game. The game in question is uncapped, minimum 300, and ppl buyin anywhere from 300-1000, sometimes bigger depending on how much money is on the table. I'd say the avg. buyin is 500.

The overall play in the game is bad obv, and mostly loose passive. People call way too much, but reraise only with very big hands and there are very few regulars that could even be considered aggressive, and pretty much no one is maniacally aggressive.

You consider yourself either the best or 2nd best player in the game, and worlds above almost everyone else. You're sitting with 500-1000 and everyone left to act has the same. It folds to you in the h/j with J6s, you? Same hand in the c/o? button?

Also curious about what your opening range from the button would be when folded to.

That sounds like my living room xD. I am playing a game like that 4 times a week. I started to play it very tight, but I got loser. Anyway I dont like raising J6s from BTN or anywhere else. Just IMO. You surely can do it. But you will get in trouble with that too often IMO.

how is J6s a trouble hand?

um, this depends a lot on the blinds specifically and i guess also on how much they'll resent you for "breaking up their chop," but against random old people i definitely raise button and maybe co but im probably folding the hj.

dont think it matters very much though.

ya how often is it even folded to you in late position anyway.... i usually make it 20, but it really does n ot matter... these kind of decisions really don't affect your win rate in this kind of a game

I was the one talking with the Agame and said my standard play is to fold 95% of the time from all 3 positions. In a tighter game where people fold Id be slightly more likely to raise pf, but in this game where everyone calls if they flop ANYTHING it means you are very often going to have to bluff 2 or more streets to pick up the pot. Seems like you take on a lot of risk for little reward playing a hand like this, and while it may be profitable (tho I am not sure I concede that fact) it seems like you are adding a ton of variance for little gain
...any more thoughts

Raising J6 from any position only fits into my personal strategy if I think I have fold equity preflop and on flop. In a very loose game, this is usually not the case, so I generally just fold it.

J6 will make the best hand often enough; if these people are 100% unbluffable then you can just take them to valuetown with a pair of jacks or better. At some point in the hand they either have to fold, or make ridiculous calldowns with virtually nothing... either way you can find a way to show a profit in the long run unless they have really sick postflop skills

wow at the results of this poll

Likewise, you have to able to fold/pot control, or otherwise lose the least amount possible when we hit and are still beat.

Q7 is widely viewed as the "average" hand in hold'em, and we're a notch below that. After the flop, we'll have position, but generally the worst of it if we receive any action at all.

We can't feel very good if we hit top pair and opponent seems willing to call us down (unless they really, really suck.)

NITS

you cant have it both ways.....either they call down really light, so you can valuetown them with 1 pair. Or they fold alot when they miss, so you can open/cbet here and scoop the pot alot. They arent going to magically have the perfect continuing frequencys to make this a -EV open

Im All-in

Correct. These loose passive players (aka calling stations) have the big leak of calling too much. The adjustments you need to make are:
1) bluff less (or even never.)
2) tighten your preflop hand ranges, and expand your postflop betting range.
3) fold when they get aggressive (indicating a much stronger range than a bet from an average opponent.)

In late position, raising with J6 gets its value from our ability to pick up dead money with no showdown. Obviously, we don't have that capability against these particular opponents.

For the 1/6th of the time that we hit a jack, we have kicker problems and are going to lose a big pot when they call three streets with J7+. Furthermore, a majority of the time there will be overcard(s) on the board, and we're going to get called down by Q7 on a QJ8 board.

For the 5/6th of the time that we don't hit a Jack, we're essentially trying to bluff the unbluffable with Jack high. Bluffing calling stations is a surefire way to lose a ton of money quick in these live games.

what you don't seem to be understanding is that if they are NEVER folding then the vast majority of the time they have absolutely no hand at all

J6s has 50.6% equity against a random hand

J6s with one jack plus four other random cards on the board against a random hand has 76.4% equity.

J6s with one six plus four other random cards on the board against a random hand has 69.3% equity (although these are a bit misleading since it includes the possibility of having two pair or better, but I'm not sure how to calculate our equity with exactly one pair).

J6s will make a hand that beats AA 16.9% of the time and anything that beats AA is pretty much the nuts against someone who never folds any two cards.

Half of the time our opponent will still have no pair on the river. That no pair sometimes will not even beat jack high. If we cannot profitably bluff out a guy that has no pair half of the time, then we cannot simultaneously be concerned about our hand being no good when we valuebet a pair of jacks.

in a vacuum I would think raising almost any 2 in LP against your typical "blind defending" 50/5/1 live player would show a profit

obviously I would much rather have a hand like 56 than J6 but your cards are made almost irrelevant given your positional advantage and the deep stacks

my rationale:
1) you are never getting re-raised light preflop
2) it will be easy to pot control
3) it will be easy to get full value when you hit board hard
4) you will almost never be put to a tough decision
5) just showing down a hand like J6s one time is going to stick out in a live players mind for a looooooong time and will be massively +EV if you are able to change gears
6) live poker is boring, why not mix it up

My assumptions are these:
1) Preflop, you will get called by any hand Q7 or better
2) Postflop, you will get called by any pair, any draw, and everything else will fold.

I think this is more realistic, and opponents like these –- who somehow won't give you three streets of value with king high -- dramatically undercut the value of the late position raise with J6.

Making this move from the hijack and the cutoff makes even less sense, because you're going to get called by the button and be out of position the rest of the hand.

I'll usually raise this from CO and BTN.

Granted, in every live game I've played recently I'll get called by everybody left to act behind me with any two suited cards, any ace, any pair, and any connectors, 1-gappers, 2-gappers, or 3-gappers ...

I haven't had the best of luck with light opening in LP live recently. I still do it though, because in principle if they're defending wide I should eventually be able to find the right number of barrels and bet sizes for this raise to be very profitable.