5/10 e2K
MP reg opens 40.
Hero is BTN QJhh to 125.
MP to 240?
Hero calls...?
HU
(500) flop QJ2dcc
V bets 175. Hero to 475? V calls.
1450) turn 8d
X hero bets 1250 all in?

I don’t think I have a 5bet range here pre so I’m just flatting all the AA-TT, AK etc and when he makes this LOL 4bet size I’m not sure I can really fold any 2 cards tbh so I’m just kinda here on the flop with my entire 3bet range.

So it’s like 3.5SPR and he cbets I think he doesn’t always 4bet JJ/QQ not to this size pure at least and I still retain full combos of QQ/JJ/QJs for thicc value

Then I’m not too sure if I can take this Line with AA/KK/AQ 200bb deep it seems a bit too thin to raise flop/jam turn and with sets I also feel like I slightly prefer to just call down since it’s less vulnerable.

So maybe we just don’t want a raising range OTF?

I don’t play too much 200bb tbh
Thoughts?

I agree pre is a range call.

Man this board gives his 4b range nightmares. I kinda want to play everything fast, especially if we block sets and/or Axcc and just be indifferent to what he does. When we run into top of range so be it, we just own this spot so hard.

nh, wp imo

"Then I’m not too sure if I can take this Line with AA/KK/AQ 200bb deep it seems a bit too thin to raise flop/jam turn and with sets I also feel like I slightly prefer to just call down since it’s less vulnerable."

I think the above is correct. So I just don't see a raising range OTF here, as you suggest.

PF is a call. Technically you can randomize to fold like 10% of the time or something if you want to be really precise.

For simplicity people play no 5bet range here, but if you do want one you do it w/ AA like 15% and all the A7s.

I don't think we raise flop ever because he mostly has AA/KK, AK.
Yeah he can have some QQ/JJ, AQ, but you block those heavily.

With our specific hand blocking all the value I think call is best by far.

I think standard line is to call and big bet on most turns that aren't an A, K, or T.

I like raising flop more than calling. He could be eager to stack off with AA/KK/AcKc, give him that opportunity

Yeah looks fine to me if you called turn.

About pre, you’re obviously allowed to have some folds in this spot. Like AQo which I assume is the bottom of your range, you could let that go; it is pretty borderline. Calling everything else for sure. Range call is probably not bad.

This flop crushes a live 4bet range. I assume we’re allowed to have raises.

DooDooPoker made a recent post in another thread claiming that solvers like to use the 2x size IP at lowish SPRs — I think 3.5SPR qualifies. If you went smaller on the flop you could use your geometric sizings across turn and river and make this into a 3street hand. Not sure whether that’s wise but it’s an option.

Our hand does benefit quite a bit from protection relative to top set so I can see the preference to make this a 2street hand. Don’t mind your line.

I was interested in this spot being 200BB deep so I solved a few trees including one with just one bet size for OOP on the flop and one with two. Some things surprised me.

IP preflop range is 77+ and all Broadways except for unsuited jacks and except for KTs and QTs. Then I added T9s as well.

OOP is QQ+, AK, and 25% of ATs, JJ, A5s


When running with two sizes (25% and 80% cbet), the solver prefers to bet the 80% size with 100% of hands!

IP, it almost never raises except for with QJ. In that case, I gave the solver both a small raise and jam and it prefers jam. The bluffs are just a few strong combo draws.

When running with just the 25% cbet, the solver bets 95% of the time OOP and never raises IP, QJs is a pure call on the flop. In fact, you're calling 90% against this small cbet. You also never jam against a turn cbet.

If he goes bet bet jam in the 25% line, you call all of your sets, Qx hands and KJs and AA, but fold KK and JTs and AJs. The reason you fold KK I think is because you block the OOP AK that bet bet jams as a bluff.

Edit: I mean for brick turns and rivers for the above

Woah your IP range is wide. Is that close to 15%?

I have BTN 3betting 8% and calling 4% against a LJ 2.25x open. KQo is the bottom of BTN 3bet range. 66-JJ are called the majority of the time. Source is the free ZenithPreflop ranges.

Facing a 4x open I guess we tighten up further. But live open ranges might be too wide in this spot, so it’s hard to know how hyperknit could be deviating.

Hyperknit are you going much wider than AQ+/TT+/suited broadways/76s+ in this spot?

Yes I agree this is pretty wide IP but deep, in position, live, and expecting to not get 4b often (live), it could be okay in my experience. With the small 4b size and OP saying he gets there with 100% of his 3bets, it looked fine to me. But I'm super aggro PF IP deeper live and I play 3b or fold on the BTN mainly so IDK.

With the range you suggested but only T9s+ (not 76s-89s) we still never raise any hand including QJs on the flop and we rarely raise turn with our range across a lot of turns. If the turn comes the Qc then we jam, otherwise its pretty thin it looks like.

interesting results, thanks for posting. did you also exclude offsuit tens from IP range? assume so but would definitely take those out if not. i would also be inclined to tighten IP range a bit by dropping or giving like 25% weight to 77/88/KQo, lower weight for AQo (maybe 50%), and adding something like 76s/65s/A5s/A4s at 50%. i might also throw one or both of AQo/KQo into the 25% category for OOP. what it looks like to me is that OOP just wants to push its equity advantage (almost 50% of OOPs range is KK+) because IPs range almost always interacts with the board in some way and is wide enough that IP actually doesnt have a nut advantage vs OOPs narrow/strong range.

ETA: didnt see above posts, im assuming OP has a btn flatting range and isnt playing an especially aggro 3b strat here, and also that OOP will have a few more random clickbacks with offsuit broadways.

Our 3b should be pretty wide here and given that we don’t fold much of that range to a minclick and opponent is aware of this then the line looks fine. We get to take this line with entire range perhaps and have many bluffs in here where opponent is forced to defend with all AA combos and AKdd/cc

PF IP GTO range vs the 4bet.

Interesting results, thanks for running it again with modified ranges.

When you said exclude offsuit Broadway Jx for IP in your initial ranges I assumed you meant offsuit JTo and that’s it. If you mean any offsuit hand containing a J or T, that’s more reasonable IMO. So that’s KQ+ then. Which is closer to what I said except for your inclusion of 77-99 which I would just be flatting on BTN in live games.

Those small pp are at heavily reduced frequencies because BTN doesn’t 3bet them pure, right?

Yea I meant any offsuit hand containing a J or T. @jvds that should address your point too before the edit.

You can see from Spyutsitc that some people are playing a lot wider/ differently than that, though I don't know what the 3b range he's using. I personally would fold pre a lot of the hands included in the call 4b range when playing live. My example was also a little more broadway and less low pocket pair and suited Ax heavy.

Spyutastic in your ranges, how many more hands are getting three bet 200BB deep v 100BB? do you only start 3 betting the lowest pocket pairs and 54s 200BB deep IP?

Yeah this is just the GTO response just posting for reference.
In live play I would heavily cut this down because the 4bet range is much tighter.

Like almost no one is 4betting 99, TT, JTs, T9s at 20% frequency here like the solver would.

Most aren't even mixing the JJ, QQ, AQs, AJs, ATs, A5s, at 50% either.

Oh I kind of misread your question. Just to add for the IP 3bet you're only 3betting 22 and 33 like around 30%, 66 at 50% and folding 44 and 55. So when you get to the 4bet response node you will not have that many which is why the absolute number of combos you'll have is not the same as something like QQ which 3bets pure. But anyways unless you're playing someone good who will try to punish you on certain boards I would still dump them instead of calling pure like the solver does.

200bb vs 100bb 3bet range. (100BB on the bottom)

Cool thanks

I play a bit different only 3bet or fold on the button but this is helpful to see. Doesn't make a huge difference for the spot in this thread.

Yep, thanks. I would lean towards something slightly tighter/de emphasizing offsuit broadways, but it sounds like it doesn’t make much difference in this spot. I thought it might wrt OOPs preference to use the larger flop sizing with full range, which I thought was the most interesting part of the sim. I do wonder at what point that begins to change as IP tightens up (such as vs a larger 4b) or as OOP 4b bluffs more (not asking you to run this, just think it’s an interesting question on this board that is generally favorable to the caller).

Super interesting thank you for sharing.

Just for my own knowledge is this against a LJ or HJ open? And what is the open size?


Thanks again.

I see what you mean

So in the first case -- same PF sizing, tighter IP range (removed KQo, now TT+, two bet sizes)
OOP is still bombing it. Now, it's only 93% of the time. It's now checking some of the time, for instance the AKs with no flush draw or backdoor flush draw, planning to fold to a bet from IP. OOP will check call a small % of the overpairs that happened to check with for example, though. Sometimes a hand like AsAh will even check raise jam if you give it that option.

OOP has a strong range composed of lots of overpairs and sets so you just bet big here deep, compared to betting small shallower it looks like.

Now, what if we used those same tighter ranges but increased the 4b size to something big like 350?
In that case, the solver starts to use the smaller sizing more (10%) and also check (20%), picking the bigger size 70% of the time. The only hand that seems to like the smaller size is KQs some of the time and QQ some of the time, checking AThh/ss and the same for AK plus a small amount of the strong hands for balance.

In both cases, QJs does like to raise against the big bet but there is no raising against the small bet.

I just ran it with OOP having QQ-AA, AKs, and AQs at 50%

And IP 99-AA, AK, all suited broadways, T9s, A5s, and then like 77,87, 65s-87s at 50%

with OOP always betting 100% of range at 1/3.

When I ran it going free it only checked 9% of the time anyways which was some of the AK and AQ combos.

Button vs LJ 3bet 200bb at 3bb open size.

Interesting.. thanks for running all of these. Yeah it looks to me like a combo of OOPs very strong range + how much of IPs range connects with the board (and would have a very profitable continue vs a small bet, etc).

On the second sim with the larger 4b, did you also modify OOP to have a wider 4b range? Just ask bc it sounds like OOP now has KQs/ATs which I didn’t think was in range before.

hmm maybe the rest of our trees on the turn and river are different leading to pretty different flop play, my sim is not raising nearly as much on the flop even with these ranges.

I have it set up as

pot 500
players have 1750 behind
OOP range: AA-QQ,AKs,[50.0]AQs[/50.0]
IP: AA-99,AKs-ATs,A5s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,AKo,[50.0]88-55,87s,76s[/50.0]

OOP can bet 1/3 or 80%
IP can raise 50% or jam (~200%)

still I only see 7% raise to 580 and 1.5% raise to 1750


and it's folding all those underpairs in my sim

I'm using GTO+ instead of Pio but still this is weird -- now I see our starting stacks and a few others things are different.