Effective stacks: $700

Preflop: Hero is dealt KK in UTG+2
1 limp, Hero limps, everyone else limps

Flop ($80): T97
SB bets $60, UTG calls, Hero???

Before I get flamed this is the type of game where I can fold every hand for 3 orbits straight and limp rr JJ+ with a short stack and get called every time.

As played folding is neutral EV no matter what right?

All-in every time, theres too many draws and morons will call with them anyway

dont limp pre

Youre kidding right?

Do you play in this game with OP? That's the only reason I can see for giving this advice. Otherwise, that's pretty terribad.

No, it's fairly negative ev because on average, you will earn x amount of money with high pocket pairs. You earned less then x with your high pocket pair if you fold.

This is the worst thing you can do. It's a multi way limped pot.

Do you have K?

How many people in the pot? Reads?

Folding is fine. If you think there is a chance they will shut down and check it down on the turn and river, calling is fine.

SB led into the field oop so folding is fine IMO.

Obv hand got screwed by pre-flop.

Im not going to flame its not called for. As for your style of play(tight passive) if i were you i would just call down. Ranges are pretty wide villain could have a draw or top pair. Those advocating folding thats just uber-bad.

Preflop is fine. Ignore people who stupidly and narrow-mindedly say not to limp with the intention of limp/raising. It's an effective tactic. This time, it didn't work out, but that's the small risk you run. In this situation, your decision was made simple though .....


....... easy fold. You have a garbage hand with this board, will hate most turn cards, and already have two interested customers WITH players to act behind you. Your hand is one pair and you have nothing invested. Forget the fact that you have KK and hate the idea of folding, and just fold.

What does OP do if he calls here on the flop and someone pops it behind him? Wasted $60.

How many turn cards will look good for Hero if he calls and it proceeds to the turn? Not many.

What are the chances that a T97 two flush board nails hands hard in a multiway limped cash game pot? Very high.

Clear fold.

To answer your question if op calls and someone pops it up we fold. Its the same if we raise cbet and someone pops it up. With a hand like kk its a certain amount we are willing to lose. as for turn play, it all boils down to hand reading/bet sizing reads/villain style of play.

Yeah, I think folding to 1 bet is pretty friggin bad here. You have to at least call imo. It's still an OP, regardless of the current board. @2outsNoProb, you gave a hypothetical "what-if" situation about a possible raise behind. Well what if the rest of the table folds? You could have 2 guys with a TP or FD/SD kind of hand OOP against you and you're way ahead. Just saying......

I don't care about the game specifics. Raise for value. Fold is definitely fine, as played. Tons of bad turns, could be already beat and it's a limped pot with SB leading.

Why are you calling this flop a "lousy flop"? If you would have TT, 99, T9, or even a 86s, J8s in a limp pot, you wouldn't call it lousy. A flop is a flop like any other flop. All flops are random and has no influence on the long term results. All there is and all there will be, a very long game that we choose to be part of. lol, lol, instead being part of the working class of dudes that make the society moving. Now, limping with KK from early position is a bad play if you don't play well after the flop. By playing well, what I mean is that you cannot lose all your deep stack in a multiway limped pot. It all depends of the effective stacks. In this case we deal with 70bb and you limped. That is a bad play. I don't understand why you did this. On the flop before the UTG dude bets $60 the SPR was 700/80 = 9. That's not a good SPR for shoving. If you just call you accomplish nothing. If you raise him you will get committed and be forced to fold if don't improve on the turn. If you shove right now you do it into unprofitable SPR. No matter how you slice it you are not in good shape due to your preflop play. I don't know what to tell you. I never put myself in this kind of situations. My play is very simple while at the same time most dudes don't understand what I'm doing.

AT,

You mean like opening to $75 PF with QQ+ in a 200NL live game?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...incts-1072165/

LOL

Always_Tilting lol lol, I love your train of thought. Does not mean your always right. But your right most of the time. See me and you we are totally different but we think in a different galaxy. You dont have answers for this "so called" bad play. Its due to the fact you think in a box. A real player knows how to play every style/situation. If you want to be a shark at the table you must be unpredictable. I have seen/bust opponents limping aces/kings. I wouldnt advise the play unless your postflop/reads are solid. But i do agree with never lrr and the thought process op had preflop with 1 limper already in before him. It should have been an automatic iso, utg limps range has call written all over it. But i was not at the table so i dont know if thats correct. I generally l/c my whole utg limp range. Op i would advise you try to analyze more hands freelance. What i mean by that, is treat each situation different, make sure you are using the information in front of you to make a decision.

You are smart and intelligent and a great player on top of all this when you call us stupid?
By my book, when some dude from 2+2 calls another 2+2er "stupid" he's automatically not a player but ..., I don't even know what to say. Why come here in the first place to discuss poker hands and strategies with a bunch of stupid dudes like us when you are so far above and super intelligent, recommending a tactic that you figure is effective of limping upfront with KK?

The only good advice you give is to fold, but calling names is very bad and disgusting, to say the least

AT,

This is a point that's been debated fairly heavily on 2p2. I was gonna type out an explanation but it's easier to just give a link:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...s-0-ev-982112/

In certain situations L/R is fine(as in will be +EV) but the problem is that it's often not optimal and it's hard to balance a L/R range. The more you try to balance a L/R range the more value you lose from certain parts of your range. Granted in some live games balancing your ranges is fairly useless (though I'd imagine at 1000NL it becomes more necessary).

In a game where limps are constantly being raised and the raisers aren't paying attention to player tendencies at all and are more likely to call your L/R than they would be to 3b/5b or 3b/call 4b then L/R is a good move but in most NLHE cash games I can't imagine too many scenarios where limping>raising (with big hands obv).

I'd be interested to hear your side of this debate. In what situations do you think limping>raising and why? (I'm honestly curious to hear, I'm not just trying to argue. I'm always open to hear a different opinion.)

Unless someone had some complete low nonense flush draw here like 4c3c, you wouldn't be "way ahead" of someone with a draw, virtually every existing draw is a combo draw. This is going under the assumption that we are winning already, which isn't that likely to begin with.

It isn't "1 bet". It's a bet and a call to us with players to act behind in a pot where we have nothing invested and the board will never be good for us. Ignore the fact that it's KK which we've waited hours for, and fold.

I called the line of thought stupid. This is because every time the limp/raise topic comes up, people (usually but not always online players) chime in with their pre-conceived notion that limp/raising is automatically terrible, simply because it isn't popular online. It hasn't really happened here, but might if the thread continues.

Mostly this. And it sounds like a reasonable spot to limp/raise pre-flop.

lol that so many people seem happy to give definative advice without knowing how many people are in the pot.

OK I raise to $45 preflop, 5 people call instead of 8, flop is the same except pot size is 270, I have 655 behind.

Is that a fist pump 3x overbet shove spot?