ok i ran into a weird preflop spot yesterday. playing 500bb effective.
Reads: SB is a rich buisnessman fish. he bought in for 100bb, this was his second hand at table. utg who is russian armenian (lol) is 500bb deep.UTG is a fish, havent played with him that much, but he is laggy and bad.

hand goes armo limps, 3 more villians limp along. SB buisnessman makes it 60. i am in BB with JJ. i make it 250. UTG calls, and every else calls.

UTG+1 limper was a insanely rich buisnessman fish with 500bb. other 2 callers were solid TAG pros. gets back to the SB and he jams for 1k. im drooling over the dead money in the pot and make in my mind what seems to be a ez 5bet to re-iso the fish with 1k dead money in there. the two tags likely called to stack the 2 fish in the pot. and honestly the two fish could have anything.

i made it 2.7k (is that the sizing i should be using or can i go alot smaller)? armo tanked for eternity and called my preflop bet, everyone else folds. flop comes q103ss

pot is like 7.2k and even tho its a pretty bad board i decide i cant fold and shove my last 2.3k into pot.

my question is should ever flat preflop this deep? and if i should def be raising should i be clicking back to like 2.2-2.3 ? since people generally disregard pot odds when faced with such a big bet?

Any idea what hands villain is putting in the 2.7k with?

Poker is dead

I guess the only hand I beat that he is putting in 2.7k in pre is ak. I expected him to jam aa and kk pre, so he has qq 1010 jj or ak. qq and 1010 are rare due to combinatorics. Ak is his most likely holding. So I decided to jam

The flop jam is trivial

You should prob just shove pre after sb comes back overtop

Yeah you can't bluff with a 2.7k raise with 5k effective anyway, even the biggest whales should know this.

what range do you give sb for his initial raise to 60?

Those must have been some really good looking jacks

people who say this are the worst

I guess we have to jam flop...?

@RubenTV, I'd say k110ss+ , 99+. He doesn't think about position when raising. He just raises when he feels like it and flats when he doesn't lol. He's really bad

Do you think utg will fold QQ pre if you rip in 5k over the 1k sb shove?

Idk I think I just flat the 60 or the 1k, def going to avoid putting 5k in with JJ that's pretty bad against almost anyone. If I am going to put 5k in, I'd like to have some fe or at least keep vill range wider (yes I think some whales will put 1k in pre without prems).

Seems like a well played hand. Flatting the initial raise pre sometimes is fine, esp in a more normal game. Easy shove on flop.

3b smaller (v v important).

Fold to the 4b after thinking globally about the hand.

ty. i didn't post cuz i thought people would just flame me for saying i would strongly consider folding to sb's 4b preflop. after your post i feel like i might still know a thing or two about this stupid game.

probably still don't.

I cannot imagine folding to the 4b as played....I think someone behind us having a better hand is extremely unlikely. Folding seems crazy with all the dead money out there. Agree that 3betting smaller is good.

I 3b smaller, call the 4b (if you want to re-iso you only need to click it back. 2.7 is way too big) and c/c the flop as played.

I don't know how this could be true.

Gimme a limp 10 utg+1/call the two raises to 250 not closing the action whatsoever or even last to act post flop range please. It's 2015, this should set off serious alarm bells imo. "Insanely rich" people do not give their money away- that's a huge misconception. 5b is out of the question imo (though I def agree that if it weren't anything over a minraise is too much).

And while flatting sounds OK at first thought (it's not like we are doing great against sb, but yeah, we would snap if there were no1 behind), I think utg +1 is gonna punish us super hard, either by correctly sensing weakness and 5b himself (gross), or by flatting a bigger pair (and bringing the other dudes along) setting our rio at a million. We are the going to have to play perfectly post flop and that's mission impossible with this hand in this spot with all the fog we've created imo.

We ****ed up pretty bad by 3b so big/such a big % of sb's stack. Mistakes happen though and trouble arises because of them- especially when you are super deep. The key is to not compound.

Lastly, 5b bluffing seems really bad here, and I'd much rather have Ax (suited would be nice) than JJ.

c/c > shove flop, agreed

(if you can fathom getting there like that)

I think utg+1 will play pretty straightforward if we flat the 1k with no sidepot. I think on this flop we can pretty confidently cfold this flop.

But the flop isn't always going to be this one. What about when it's 554, 943 with a fd, anything but Jxx?

I don't know hero or utg+1, but it's very possible utg+1 will think hero is just gambling with the lighter side of his 3b iso range when he flats the 750 more at such a good price. And so he will 5b his entire range himself... Or if he's nittier than that (won't 5b his AK in an amazing spot to/won't even consider merging his TT and JJ/will call and evaluate with his QQ even though deep down he knows it's good), he will at least now 5b his KK, which is a pretty big part of his range ime.

So we get punished a decent amount when we flat, in that we put in 1k and don't even get to see the flop. And when utg+1 just flats behind us, we have the problem of being at the top of our range and still not happy flopping an overpair. And say UTG+1 checks back the 554 flop with QQ. What happens when the turn is anything < J? Do we correctly check/fold? Do we check and allow AK to see yet another free card?

Also, what about the other dudes? The first guy is going to have to put 750 more in to win 3500, and the next guy 750 more to win 4250 ---> they are calling too. We are going to have to bluff catch them when they flop something with a lot of equity. And we are going to be crushed plenty when we do (aside from the times they absolutely mash the flop, UTG+1 is gonna say **** it and overcall with his QQ a lot too). I mean the whole reason Op 5bet in the first place is because he did not want to take a flop 5 ways, first to act post flop, with a death hand for a huge bloated pot and a spr of < 1.

It's all too messy imo. Our overpair rio is huge. Can't flat, can't 5b. Let it go. Make it 110-160 next time...

Love this post. +1000000.

It's all too messy imo. Our overpair rio is huge. Can't flat, can't 5b. Let it go. Make it 110-160 next time...[/QUOTE]

just wanted to clarify, when SB makes it 60, u think i should 3bet to 110-160?