LOL....my overwhelmingly favorite phrase is "I fold." And, I think it's used correctly 99% of the time I say it.

Ha, fair enough; me too!

(I actually meant that in general, the decision for me is between calling vs folding, not raising vs folding.)

You guys won't open limp with small pocket pairs against calling stations in a 1/2 NL game? Or are you guys playing higher against better opponents? I'm not sure what a raise would accomplish unless you want those calling stations to fold more often before the flop.

so you're really calling a pot sized c bet from a tight, unimaginative player on an A high board with a gut shot... for the value of the Implied Odds when you hit, with the intention of folding to a turn bet when you don't hit?

so that means you're making enough on the 1 in 11 times your gut shot comes in to profitably cover the 10 pot sized bets you call but then miss your draw on the turn.


I'm not convinced

I'm not doing it 100% of the time I flop a gutshot. I would need the player to be one who is more likely than not betting again on the turn and isn't going to back down when I raise. I'm also more incline to do it if I believe the player is stronger than just one pair or the pot is multiway. I'm seeking out those who are going to overvalue TPTK/Overpairs. I see plenty of poor players in my card room who are willing to go to the felt with these hands, even as deep as 150-200bb. These are the people I'm targeting with this sort of play.

FYP

If you do this, you will be a winner at LLSNL. You may not crush the game, but you will definitely be beating the game.

If you want to CRUSH the game, then I will add this one thought.

Understand the logic and thinking behind all the fish mantras and "common" poker wisdom regurgitated in the casino: don't want to be greedy, pots big enough take it down now, never slow play, got to get the drawers out, giant preflop raise with AA because you hate losing with AA, etc....

Understand all that fishthink and identify specifically why and in what circumstances it is wrong and then exploit the mistakes of said fish who follow all the mantras with the religious ferver of a 15th century Spanish Inquisitioner...

IMO, Do that in combination with the above 4 steps and you will crush LLSNL...

semi-grunching on this point. I think this is very relavent, especially at 1/2 when you consider how much % you are giving up when including the rake, BBJ, and tip.

getting thin value with one pair hands and getting the pot to over $60 is almost a must to beat 1/2. Therefore, I never open limp also. (unless I am limp re-raising with JJ+)

I see lots of internet refugees limp/RR with 22+ for a squeeze play and getting value-crushed by all the live nits who see and that move once and then will wait hours just to pounce on it.

trollin?

LOL at trying to figure out what the minimum effort entails.
in live poker, you are obv playing one table only, so this online mind-set of finding
a 'formula' to squeeze just enough EV out only has merit while multi-tabling,
and won't get the job done in the live setting. you are seeking too small an edge.
seeking small edges only works with the overlay from multi-tabling online;

there is no formula!.
I see 'good' online players with this monstorous leak all the time, where they bet the correct amount according to bet-sizing, blah, blah, but fail to recognize that they are playing vs. a drooler who
is calling any amount with any part, or piece. its laughable they dont see what they are being offered. maybe its that they cant really fathom how truly bad some of these villians are??
the obv 'correct' play to me is to overbet the s#*yt out of it.

in live poker vs. bad opponents (common in live poker), you are given so much information, that its super-unprofitable to not take advantage of that,
and of broadcasting mis-leading information; getting villians to over-adjust.
(find cheap ways to come off as a maniac)

I think its true you can virtually double a live win-rate purely with metagame/ making sick reads; things that really mostly are possible only outside of online poker. (maybe HU being an exception?)

I think the goal was to establish a baseline to work from, not the minimum effort that should be used. It's probably useful if you aren't beating the game (and therefore don't have a baseline)- these skills are ones you should learn before trying to learn the more profitable adjustments.

I don't know if these are correct or not, but I certainly see the value of walking before you can run, for me it was learning to beat STTs, then tournaments, then cash. There are a lot more tools you need to play cash due to depth, so that approach worked for me (and I stopped playing tournaments seriously years ago- after playing cash they just aren't fun anymore)

I'm glad I have company.

Don't you feel this is too obvious if you're only doing it with the near-nuts, or is your impression of the average 1-2 player that he/she will not pick up on this? For this to be profitable, it would seem that at least one of the limpers has to believe that we are making a move.

When I see somebody limp-reraise, I'm almost always assuming it's a monster. For example, in a recent session, I saw a guy in his early 50s do this twice in 3-4 hours. The first time was KK and the second time was AA. Amazingly, he stacked someone each time. Of course, the first one was against a guy who was in the midst of monkey tilt, and the second one was against a seemingly competent player who was unfortunate enough to have KK.

I just have to believe that I'm basically never paying someone off who plays their hand this way. So I guess if there is a crafty 1-2 player out there balancing his limp-reraising range with completely random nonsense hands, he might be able to fleece me.

you're clearly more of a thinking player than most 1/2 villains, but to be honest, I don't care if it's obvious to most players at 1/2 - I'm happy to win with my Aces pre flop or for any callers to be getting the wrong odds to see a flop.

to me, there are a few advantages to Limp re raise with high pockets (for me it's qq+)
I find it generally allows me to take the pot down pre flop or isolate vs one or two villains.
Generally EP early limps are 3 bet by a late position player. Happy Days when there's a second caller from Btn or blinds which gives us $50-60 in the post and allows us to take down a sizeable pot with a decent 4 bet (I'd be betting $70).
If it's just one LP 3 bet then I'll 4 bet less and encourage a call, knowing I can take the initiative on the flop and bet hard at it or c/r if I bink a set.

The alternative is raising large enough from UTG to eliminate small pocket pairs but to do this, you really need to bet $25-30 (yup really) and there's a good chance you're just picking up the blinds.

what I won't ever do is raise $6,8,10 or 12 and get 5 or 6 callers and basically be set mining.

of course, there's a risk of the limp checking round, but at least in that situation we've invested nothing in the pot and can get away from it easily

there are people on this forum who hate the Limp RR from EP, so there's a chance I'm going to get flamed for this but I've found it a profitable strategy

When you call, you have one way to win: show the best hand. When you bet or raise, you have several ways to win: force a better hand to fold, get a worse hand to call or steal equity from others.

When you run bad like I do, I can't depend on getting my fair share of "best hands."

For me, knowing who I absolutely want to play in a big pot against as well as who I don't is at the top of my list. I identify the marks, watch their tendencies and wait for a good spot to either isolate them or sneak into a multiway pot and outflop them while they have the initiative.

I don't play any two, but I'm certainly not sitting around waiting to pick up good cards and then say to myself, " hey, these are good cards... How do I want to proceed?"

I really, REALLY hope you consider otherwise. Like, im sorry man but this, this really just made me kinda sick. You can't play poker that scared money, or your missing out in a TON of EV, I mean a TON and that not even being the worst part, its extremely exploitable. I'm not going to touch on this too much, but this right here is probably the most exploitable, nit/rock bizarre style ever. I'm not trying to put you down at all, just sheer criticism, if your limping only QQ+, only to limp re-raise to steal and not for value, its just not good.

On the other hand, try considering the open limp with SC's and SP's so you at least balance your open limp/RR range (to steal), therefore allowing you to not only balance your range but when you open limp/RR steal and table 54s, those maniac/fish who lose their mind after flatting a raise behind with QJ and have to fold, cannot wait for you to do that again! Then, you show QQ+ next time, balance your range, print that money, and build an open limping/limping behind range that's not only not exploitable but one that will also get you alot of respect so you can limp SC's and SP's profitably.

Cue dream sequence....

Playing 1/2 at my local cardroom. I've decided it's time to balance my limp reraising range, and what do you know I pick up 67s UTG. I limp, UTG+1 make it 10, four calllers, and now the action is back to me! Time to show these clowns who's boss...

I raise it up big time. No scared money here. $100 to go. UTG+1 calls for half his stack. No problem, I'm gonna own this donkey after the flop. Flop come T62r. Gotta jam here and "rep" a big overpair... wait what? He called? With 88? <Turn bricks, river bricks> WTF This guy has gotta be the worst poker ever! How could you call me there? MY LIMP/RERAISE RANGE IS UNEXPLOITABLE! <Digging in pockets for a short buy, cuz grinding .10/.25 online doesn't building much of a bankroll>

End dream sequence...

This is kind of what I'm thinking. If you play against people that are paying attention at all, your limp-reraise is going to set off alarms. And while you might get everyone to fold and win a decent pot without seeing a flop, there has to be a better way to win money with AA-QQ than telegraphing that you have one of those hands.

I agree that if you're going to employ the limp-reraise strategy, it could be very beneficial to balance your range. If you do pull it one time with suited connectors and then show everyone after they fold to your sizable 3-bet, it could pay huge dividends for you later. They'll think you're nuts!

limp reraising is ****ing dumb, it is like 100% of the time ****ing ******ed. There are numerous posts/reason why it is stupid so feel free to go look it up.

Just stop. please. just stop.

Limp/RR'ing is an "option" to manipulating SPR. If you try and felt TP hands constantly, limp/RR'ing bigger hands (not just QQ+) will work.....the first time. It's just hard to very hard to balance this enough to get it paid off. It's a nice theory, but much easier said than done at a typical 1/2 table.

Limp/reraising is always a hotly debated issue on here. FWIW, I'm fine with it and actually consider it the standard play at very loose / aggro / etc. tables (plus I don't think we have to balance at all, unless we feel throwing in AK is considered balancing).

you're UTG with AA, 100% of pots are raised preflop, there are 5-6 callers every time if there is only a single raise pre... How do you proceed?

Stinkubus- LOL. Your dream sequence is spot on to my observational experience at the 1/2 tables.

l/rr isn't dumb, its just 'obvious'.

Lucky for us, most LLSNL fish/donks just don't care about obvious.

The only thing that is "dumb" is thinking you have to "balance" your l/rr range.

That is semi-******ed. l/rr to steal, l/rr for value, but never ever l/rr to "balance".

I absolutely LOVE to l/rr with QQ-AA when i'm on an aggro table full of donks that love to say, "Lets build a flop" and then raise 3bb...

You l/rr and a funny thing happens, preflop the donks/fish think "Wow, he must have a good hand" but then come flop, if the donk/fish hits ANY of the board, they completely forget about your preflop l/rr. It's like the l/rr never happened!!!

They will call you down...

My favorite is when they keep stating your hand like, "Damn, you got AA or KK huh?" each time calling all the way. River comes, you bet big they call, you show AA/KK and they say, "I knew it!!!" and then they muck

gotta love LLSNL

Not sure how I feel about this. If you're playing with contemplative players who are very cautious about proceeding against a limp-reraise, I think there could be some value in showing them a less than premium hand. That might help you get paid off when you do have it.

However, if you're dealing with players who aren't even paying attention and assume you don't have anything because you limped and assume that your raise is a steal attempt, you're probably better off only showing up with the nuts.

There are several ways to think about it, and I'm not sure what the right answer is. The problem with the limp-reraise in general, is that the results can be catastrophic when it doesn't work. If you limp and four people limp behind you, you've probably missed out on quite a bit of equity and you're facing several opponents out of position. If you try to make a move after you limp and someone raises, you're going to be committing an awful lot of chips with not much of a hand.

I think I'll just stick with my philosophy of avoiding the limp-reraise altogether. Although I must say, when someone gets tricky (like limping in with a monster after other limpers) and pulls it off, it's fun to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlmlutyXJ-I