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4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / 4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img /

03-08-2020 , 10:36 PM
Hi guys, I've been playing $1/$3 for about an hour. Haven't done much and am at my original buy-in of $300.

Villain is a Hispanic guy in his 20s. Seems to be a good player and a LAG. Playing a wider range and betting preflop. Just recently won a big pot where he semibluffed a flush draw that came through. He's got me covered, about $900. OTTH

Folded to hero in LJ with QcQh. Bet to $15. Folded to Villain who raises to $45. I reraised to $100, with the plan to fold to a shove. He calls.

Flop ($200) Jh 5h 2c. Villain checks, hero bets $100 and villain raises all-in. I have $100 left, pot is $500.

What's he taking with this line that I'm ahead of? AhKh, maybe AJ or KJs? On the other hand, JJ got there and he could also be slowplaying AA or KK.

My line has been so strong, he's got to figure I'm not folding. Seems like a thinking player and less likely to spew a pair of jacks. In this case, do you call? Or how else would you play this hand? Thanks!
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-08-2020 , 10:42 PM
we don't have villain's position?

4bet/fold at 100bb is no bueno. either flat the 3bet (which I wouldn't do with QQ against a LAG) or 4bet/get it in

as played you need to be good 1 in every 6 times here so folding an overpair is atrocious.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-08-2020 , 11:32 PM
+1 to wrath on everything
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-09-2020 , 01:43 AM
Firstly, your preflop sizing makes things weird here. Doesn’t necessarily mean that the size is wrong (it’s 1/3 after all and people love to call raises, night as well charge them). But it does make it awkward when you get 3 bet.

Example: 100 bb stacks you make it 3 bb. Someone 3 bets you to 9 bb. You call. SPR ~ 4.8

Here, 5x to 15x you call. SPR ~ 2.75.

In the former, you have wiggle room. In the latter, you continue and flop TP or better, you’re basically going to be stacking off. Just worth knowing.

Also of note is that it makes 4 bets awkward. I’m actually a fan of this size if we do this with a wicked narrow and nutted range. Like QQ+/AKs/AKo sometimes for value. Maybe throw in a hand like A5s as a bluff. Gives you a chance to make a cheap bluff, and while pot odds will justify a call from your opponent, they’ll mostly be making a mistake on the flop at these depths. And we are calling off all of those value combos and folding our ace wheel bluffs if he jams.

Not jamming at a 1 SPR with an overpair is just wrong. Like if you’re beat you’re losing it all anyway. Here you have to just pile the cash in while he still might call it off with AJs or TT. Like what if the turn is the 8h and he has black tens? He may fold for the last 100.

Plus if he has AK you really don’t mind taking the pot down right here versus letting it realize it’s equity. You’d most prefer it realized it’s equity by calling an all in, though. It’s about 3:1 against to win getting 2:1 on a jam. I see this a bunch in low stakes games where people will bet an amount and leave a trivial amount behind. There’s no reason. You have two possible decisions when you are the preflop aggressor in a pot with an SPR of 1 or less. You check or your jam. That’s it. Following this will mean you play these spots correct 99% of the time (and yes I know someone will fly in here with some point that if villain fits this description perfectly, then we should bet smaller).

As played folding to the jam is horrendous. This is what you want with a small 4 bet right? You maybe kept his AJs in his range and now he’s incorrectly jamming. Or he is just spazzing the rest in the middle.

Whenever I hear this stuff, my first question is whether you should even be sitting at the table. $300 is a lot of money for a lot of people, and I’m concerned that your sizes were more of a stack preserving technique (aka “betting to see where I’m at”). If that’s the case, there’s still sites online where you can play much lower.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by jdr0317; 03-09-2020 at 01:53 AM.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-09-2020 , 11:59 AM
With this aggro player still to act preflop in the blinds (as well as still half the world as we're only in the LJ), and with a stack size that is going to be difficult to setup a comfortable stack off spot with TP postflop with a single raise, I would lean to a limp here. But that's my style.

How often has this guy 3bet preflop? How often have we opened? We're not exactly in super LP here, although we are the first into the pot. Do we have a nitty image? It's kinda a gross spot, imo. I folded QQ preflop to a 3bet yesterday (correctly), but the situation was admittedly a lot different. I think all 3 options are in play but it's probably really dependent on a had-to-be-there-conditions read.

As played, we've left ourselves in an SPR 1 pot and we flopped an overpair; we're 100% committed. I would have actually just shoved the flop, but as played we have to snap this off (as much as we should probably hate it as our hand reads as AA).

GcluelessNLnoobG
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-09-2020 , 10:08 PM
4bet jam QQ preflop here, there is no other choice. You're LP vs the blinds (so it seems, you didnt mention villains position) who is going to attack your looser range and 3bet light. There is no 4bet value that doesnt pot commit you so just stick it in, which may play into his tendencies if he misreads you for tilt.

As played once again we're already committed so dont sweat it. He's obviously not bluffing but that doesnt mean you arent ahead. I highly doubt a LAG as you describe him is going to flat your tiny 4bet out of position with any premium holding except MAYBE JJ, but we cant play poker fearing every set out there.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-10-2020 , 10:51 PM
Thanks for the advice guys! And sorry for not mentioning, he was in the BB.

Hmm, maybe the PF sizing was a problem. Put me in a spot where I was pretty pot committed. Guess if we did more like $10, $30, $70, I'd still have half my stack and could fold on the flop.

Harder at $1/$3 because people seemed to be 3-betting my $10 pf raise more often. Might have had cards though.

Will keep practicing, thanks again!
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-10-2020 , 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox89
Thanks for the advice guys! And sorry for not mentioning, he was in the BB.

Hmm, maybe the PF sizing was a problem. Put me in a spot where I was pretty pot committed. Guess if we did more like $10, $30, $70, I'd still have half my stack and could fold on the flop.

Harder at $1/$3 because people seemed to be 3-betting my $10 pf raise more often. Might have had cards though.

Will keep practicing, thanks again!
you're not thinking about this optimally. it isn't about winning the most pots, it's about winning the most money, which can often involve losing more pots but winning more in the fewer pots you win.

you shouldn't be bet sizing so that you can fold an overpair on the flop, you should be sizing to get the most value from your big hands. you want to bet big with your big hands because people call with all kinds of trash. (tbh, at 1/3 I don't think $15 is too big at all, I think it's standard)

the sizing adjustment to make pre flop would be to 4 bet larger to either get it in pre or to set up a flop shove.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-11-2020 , 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox89
Guess if we did more like $10, $30, $70, I'd still have half my stack and could fold on the flop.
This is like saying you could bet $20 on the flop into a pot of $100 and fold to a shove. Your goal isnt to set up spots to fold lol, it's to set up spots to stack your opponent. At your stack depths you cant get 3 streets of value in a 4bet. You're going to be allin on the flop or turn at the very latest, and thats assuming you dont get it in preflop. You cant just go around flatting with QQ either because then you deserve to lose the hand letting your opponent set his own price and not charging him more to give him bad odds.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-11-2020 , 11:07 AM
anyone else open limp here with QQ?
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-11-2020 , 01:24 PM
Buy in for more since game plays bigger.

If villain is actually a LAG 4b/c. However, calling is also fine.

Your flop cbet is waaaaay too big.

As played snapcalling and not happy about it.

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4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-11-2020 , 11:22 PM
Ah so maybe the flop bet was too large according to Franchie804? I guess headup, could go 1/3 of the pot size instead of half.

Is there anyway to avoid a slowplayed AA or KK in this situation? Thanks for putting up with my ignorance on this guys, realy appreciate the feedback!
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-12-2020 , 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox89
Is there anyway to avoid a slowplayed AA or KK in this situation?
Sure, you just play like a nit 100% of the time and leave tons of money on the table and reduce your hourly to maybe 1SB/hour, but hey at least you dont get trapped.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-12-2020 , 12:28 AM
Most Vs at these stakes don’t trap with AA/KK. They just pile it in. I think he has AJ a lot or a flush draw. Happy to get it in. Who knows? Maybe he has the last two queens.

I don’t think your sizing otf is bad at all. Queens need protection more than kings or aces.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote
03-12-2020 , 06:48 AM
Don't overthink it, for 100 more snap call.
4-bet QQ pf, then get c/r on a wet Jxx board. Is there a fold here? <img / Quote

      
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