^ lotta assumptions about guys coming along with absolute crap or playing back at us with nothing

Gsimplytargetthehandsthataremostlikelytocontinue,i moG

Likely still getting stacks in vs 8.

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Then over bet alot!!!!!!

Easy game

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Seems awful

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pot/~pot/~pot
$25/$65/$150

I'm not assuming guys are coming along with crap, I'm giving them the opportunity to continue if they have a flush draw (BB) or end up making a hand on the turn (CO and maybe the straddle if we get lucky.

Let's say the worse case scenario happens and when we call instead of x/r on the flop the straddle doesn't call 18, leaving us 3 handed going into the turn. We can now make a bet of 52 rather than 95, and a bet of 52 is easier for BB to chase than a bet of 95, especially when we haven't signaled a monster with a x/r. 8x is still coming along if that were in the hand, and flush draws (which is what I assume BB holds) has implied odds still with CO behind him in the hand. Straddle could improve on the turn too if he sticks around with a backdoor draw.

Instead, we signaled strength and made it too expensive for opponents to continue, limiting the pot size. The x/r on the turn makes it hard for a flush to continue and knocked the CO out of the pot. The only way we get to max value is by getting calls on the next two streets, and the x/r limited the range of hands that could continue to 8x.

^

Well, assuming the BB didn't fold an 8 (I don't think either of us believe that), he just called a check/raise on the flop on a paired board multiway, and he's the table nit. So we're missing huge value not attempting to get money in here if that is what is happening.

Add to that the times 8x with a weak kicker just MUBSy calls down the small bets, and again we miss huge value.

The huge value we miss from hands that will start paying off ain't worth the little scraps of value we get from the very weak hands that *may* (but may not) come along to our slowplay.

GimoG

I'm new here, what is MUBSy?

G recently put up an acronyms list here (I think there's a link to it in the stickies?).

Monsters Under The Bed Syndrome, he's getting freaked out that even though he has a good hand he fears he may be up against a better one.

GcluelessNLnoobG

In that case, we're not getting value whether we slow play or donk the flop. A MUSBy isn't calling 3 straight PSB's.

Bottom line, if we want to maximize value someone either has to have 8x or hit/chase a flush, right? The only person capable of playing back at us with air is the CO (who we knocked out with our x/r) if the BB is a nit. The nit isn't chasing a flush past the turn with consecutive PSB's, is he? I feel like if villains don't have 8x, we get more value by slow-playing because a flush can catch up or someone can make a play at the pot. If they do have 8x, we are going to get value when they make a move regardless.

Personally dislike the x/r. How often are you check-raising flush draws on a paired middle card board with a flush draw? If they have the 8, you will stack them, provided that they are not the worlds biggest nit, or if the board runs out highly unfavorable. You have priced out the hands that are drawing all but dead to you.

Your range is too nutted. If I didn't plan to lead out, I would check-call almost all hands I was continuing with, and x/r strong eights and the nut flush draw. Your check-calling range becomes way too weak if you check raise all your strong hands and only check-call draws and middling pairs. And if you are always throwing away middling pairs like 77 or 99 here, then you are giving away money.

I disagree. A MUBSy player *hates* calling 3 postflop bets with 8x here, but they'll typically bite their lip and do it (especially as their kicker gets bigger or the kicker on board plays). However, give them a chance to check back to pot control in order to take stacks out of the equation? They'll take that in a heartbeat if we offer it to them.

GcluelessMUBSynoobG

I agree.

:grunch:

Preflop: Fine. (Duh.)

Flop: I feel like this is a fine place to lead out, see if we can get a call or three, hopefully a raise.

AP, I'd probably flat CO and hope to keep other players in. Not really scared of anything here. If an 8 hits their kicker, so be it.

Once you get cold called by BB, I'm thinking he has an 8 here an awful lot of the time and I'm looking to get the money in.

Turn: I'm split on simply leading this and expecting BB to tag along with 8's, or checking to see if we can get him to bet into us by looking weak. Leading is probably better, but I'd make it a little smaller. $75ish.

You're not perceived as TAG. No one is.

I think betting a little smaller gets us more calls, and leaves V the possibility of thinking thy can bet us off the hand if we look a little weak.

And I probably wouldn't jam a club river if we thought he was on a draw, or capable of bluffing at all. We'd check call or check/jam for a small amount. If we bomb it all his bluffing hands fold anyway, while his flushes good enough to call us should still bet something.

^ Guy is a nit. He will never bluff a missed draw. He will make a crying call if he hits the flush OTR. He's the type to check/fold KK to me on J83ss when a third spade hits turn and I bet with T9o.

I cannot check any street and rely on him to do the betting for me. But yeah, I can def bet smaller to rope him in with his entire range. Just felt like he had 8x a lot here, but guess I was wrong.

Yea, reading the thread, I agree that if you're going to x/r the flop it should be larger.

OP: You're more likely to get paid off with a bet/bet/bet line than a x/r line. Any hand that will call a x/r (a good 8 mostly) is likely to *raise* you at some point as you bet into them. I trash hand will mostly fold, and a draw will likely check behind so you can't x/r.

Ever heard of inelasticity?

I doubt it. Take an econ class, smartass

Hilarious! !!!

Got just few economic coarses under my belt.

You overbet all your strong hands and flush draws to balance I assume.

That leaves whole range face up

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Lmao at balance at LLSNL. That's hilarious.

this is a mandatory bet OOP.