Hi guys this is my first thread on 2+2. Thought I'd ask for some advice on a hand.. Weird Hand.

$1/3 Live no-limit
I have $170 in the BB

Pre:
Villian 1 utg limps. Seems loose passive fish but pretty new to the table

Villian 2 utg+1 limps. Drunk loose passive dude. Often bets out with small bets with average hands. Hasn't raised since I've been at the table (2 hours.) A Beginner. Often bets out of turn accidently.

Villian 3 raises to $15 on the Button. Pretty "standard" player.
I call with AJ offsuit in the BB. My image is very tight and moderately aggressive.

Villian 1 and 2 both call.

Pot is $60

On the Flop: AJK with 2 diamonds.
I have two pair Aces and Jacks, with no diamonds. I check.

Villian 1 bets $10.

Villian 2 calls $10

Button folds.

I check-raise to $25

Villian 1 calls the $25

Villain 2 raises to $60.

I think about it then call. Maybe should have folded here since it was the only time I've seen this guy raise? I know I should have bet more as a check raise obiviously. Bet sizing was off. I just didn't want to scare these fish away...

I call the $60

Villian 1 calls the $60.

Pot is $240
Turn card is a blank, an 8.

I bet out $50

Villian 1 calls $50.

Villian 2 raises to $100

I go all-in. I put the rest of my stack in (I had $60 left.)

Villian 1 calls
Villain 2 calls

Pot is $615
River card is blank, an 8. No flush.

On the river Villian 2 makes one more bet and Villian 1 calls.

Board shows AJK82

Calling a 5BB raise OOP with AJ is not what a tight player does. The rest of the hand is just an abomination.

If you want to get better you need to learn from your mistakes and every decision you made in this hand was wrong.

Dont call preflop
Dont check raise this flop
Never check raise that small
Dont call a passive players reraise
Dont lead turn there
I guess your last decision was probably OK based on pot odds to hit your 4 outter (if you even have outs. You will drawing dead here very often with

Thank you Mike

Ok. So I understand it's bad play pre flop, bad bet sizings, and I shouldn't have called a raise from a really passive player who hasn't raised in 2 hours. I'll learn from these mistakes...

But once I called preflop and hit 2 pair on a scary straight board with 2 passive players yet to act, should I bet out big or check to see what happens?

With 3 broadway cards, I would lead out so it doesn't check thru which will happen a lot of they are passive.

If you aren't calling preflop what are you doing?? Honestly I'm fist pump calling this bet expecting to play a pot with 2 fish and a strong hand. I'm certainly not folding it preflop and it's on the weaker side to 3-bet for value against a "standard" type player, although he probably calls a 3-bet with worse hands.

I would probably lead flop large (like $50) and jam blank turns, expecting to get called by worse from the fish a large % of the time.

They can have KQ, KT, KJ, QJ, JT, diamonds that I wouldn't expect to fold.

I love your location, kelbs, I still have that picture on my desktop!

Mike is right though, a tight player folds or raises this hand (maybe you are not a tight player?). Given our stack and the reads, I raise pretty big. I'll stack off pre against all but the button.

Fold or 3-bet pre. We're pretty short-stack here, and calling off almost 10% of our hand pre with AJ. We're guaranteed to go 4 way here with terrible absolute and relative position if we just flat. I probably 3-bet to 60, which I size a little bit bigger than normal because of terrible position, the fact that there are two fish in the hand, and the fact that it sets up an easy shove on any flop if called in one spot.

As played, you hit this flop hard and need to bet with two loose passive players in the hand. Bet $50, call a shove and if just called, shove any blank turn (not a Q, T, or diamond).

Your flop check-raise is just ludicrously small. The pot heading to the flop is $60 so $25 would have been a very small lead. As played you're check-raising $15 more into $90. You're better off shoving here and getting called by pair+GS or flush draws.

I think if it just was me and the button raiser then I fold or raise pre. But surely I don't want to scare off the bad fishy players who have already limped? If I call here then that potentially keeps them in a hand which AJ plays decent against?

I don't get the "a tight player does ____" argument. Why does that even matter? We should pick the option that is most +EV.

I would much much much rather play a pot with 2 fish than 3-bet and isolate a player who seems to know what he's doing. Like... wtf? This seems like the easiest call PF I've ever seen.

And I certainly prefer a call preflop over a fold.... This hand is too strong to fold. We're going to make money with it whether we call or 3-bet. We make $0 if we fold it. Why would we fold it if we decide we can't 3-bet with it?

Because AJ off suit doesn't play that well multiway? Because we not only have the worst absolute position, but we have the worst relative position?

Sorry, man, but calling this hand preflop is a leak.

Your read of them is that they are loose/passive. You make money versus L/P players by betting.

Completely disagree. In my post that you quoted I said I think calling and 3-betting are both +EV (they both make us money) and obviously folding is 0EV. If you think calling this hand preflop is a leak then you must think its -EV. I don't see how in the world that could be the case when at least 1 of the fish are probably coming along (if not both).

Even if the fish weren't in the hand I'd still call. If you're folding AJ to a raise then I'm opening every hand on the button vs you and printing money by taking your blinds. If you start 3-betting AJ vs my button opens then I'll create a polarized 4-betting range against you and force you to fold AJ preflop.

In this situation I don't care that much about position. We're shortstacked so position matters less, but more so I'm just trying to make top pair on the flop and bet 2/3 streets vs the fish. Can do that from OOP or IP.

If you give each of the limpers a top 50% range and the initial raiser a 25% range, you have about 28.5% equity. You're out of position generally and to the PFR, and stacks aren't deep enough to outplay anyone. If you 3-bet big you may go heads up with one of the fish which is huge.

If the fish weren't in the hand, I'd call too, a certain percentage of the time.

A HUD would show that calling a raise with AJo in the blinds multiway to a button raise is a -EV play. One could argue that Live play is enough different from online that this does not translate, but I suppose that's up to the individual.

You are right that our shortish stack mitigates position somewhat, but I don't think it is enough, or we are short enough.

BTW, AJs is a snap call, ofc.

Calling a raise with AJ just flat out sucks. Not too many people raise with AT or worse so when you flop TP, you will win a small pot or lose a big one. This is NL poker 101.

I'll take just about any suited one or 2 gapper and call a raise with it before I will call with AJ OOP. I'll take the "fish's" QT before Ill call with AJ.

A HUD wouldn't tell us that. A HUD tells us stats about the few dozen hands (or hundred) we've played with the players in our current session. It doesn't tell us whether flatting AJo is a -EV play because its not statistically significant yet.

A hand history database with tens of thousands of hands would tell us whether flatting with AJo is a -EV play. But you'd need a ****load of hands before you know. Source: I played online before black friday and have a database with 10's of thousands of my own hands.

If you were the BTN in this hand, what range of hands would you be raising given the limping fish in front?

What range of hands do you actually think BTN is raising?

Yes, yes, you are correct. I misspoke, I meant hand histories, ofc (I blame the drugs). I played online from 2000 (started when the smallest game was 1/2 limit, lol) until just before Black Friday (I saw it coming, and I was bored). My hand histories tell me playing AJ off from the blinds multiway to a button raise was unprofitable. Perhaps yours do not. Perhaps you are a better player than me, and I'm not trying to be snarky, I really mean that.

However, the players for whom flatting here in the situation described by the OP is +EV are few and far between, and most players would be better served by raising (especially with the reads of V1 and V2) or folding, but, as I said, YMMV.

I agree button is wide. This makes me want to raise more, ofc.

I would have a wider raising range than most people here from the button, but I still almost never raise lower Aces than AJ. You could have me dominated if you hit TP with your J, but me having position on you is going to make up for that. It just makes poker so much easier to fold AJ to a raise OOP than trying to guess whether or not the button has an overpair when you flop Jxx.

I have no idea what hands THIS button is raising without being at the table. Hero gave us virtually no read. What I do know is that hero doesnt play post flop well enough to call a raise with AJ.

Trivial fold for me postflop. Yeah, Button may be widening his range a little trying to isolate the noobs, but in the end AJo just plays horribly against most decent raising ranges, plus we'll be OOP, plus we will probably be in a multiway low SPR pot and feel committed with any pair (meh, especially when passive noobs often limp hands that dominate us).

SPR is a very small 2.6 and we've got two pair. We're 100% committed here. The board is extremely drawy with a bunch of action killing cards. Pot is already $60 and we only have $155 left. With noobs at the table who are likely not to fold draws or pair + draw type hands, I think I would actually just open shove this. I mean, we could also bet out a PSB, but that leaves us with just a 1/2 PSB for the turn, which is a little meh since we're full committed and yet so many scare cards. We could perhaps check/jam, but it would suck if this checked thru.

As played (checking), lol at the betsizing, but now there is $80 in the pot which is creeping up on our stack size. I would just shove. People don't like folding draws on the flop.

Lol at the bet sizing and check/raise sizing. You realize you just gave your first of two opponents immediate odds of 7:1 right?

And lol at just calling the raise. If we call and the guy behind us calls, there will be $240 in the pot and we'll have just $95 left. And yet we hate about 1/3rd of the deck. Just ship it in.

You just bet out $50 of your remaining $95 into a $240 pot? Your bet sizing on the whole hand is completely wack, especially when you should consider yourself committed on the flop and noobs will pay off with worse immediately.

Greallyunclearwhothenoobisinthishand,imoG

Calling off 9% of our stack to preflop raises hoping to hit something is bleeding money.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1

It's *possible* (???) an expert could flat AJo here and make it profitable (although an expert probably takes the fold or 3bet street). Seeing how this lol HH played out postflop, there is no way Hero can make flatting this hand profitable (no offense OP, also keeping in mind that I also couldn't make flatting this hand preflop profitable).

GcluelessNLnoobG