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2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots 2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots

11-19-2015 , 10:34 PM
2/4 NLHE 10 players

Just looking for some input on these 2 hands:
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Hand 1:

Hero is in MP with A T
A LAG (60/25) opened UTG for $15
Hero calls
A 30/15 to my left shoved for $20
1 more caller in LP, UTG calls, I call.

4 people to flop ($86)
A 8 3
Checks to me, Hero bets $50
When I did this, the UTG guy (talkative) said "Oh! He's hit his ace!"
I didn't know what to make of it at the time, a tell? A reverse tell? Gut tells me he has an ace as well. He'd open EP with crap aces all the time.

LP folds, UTG calls.
HU to the turn: 2 (pot $186)
Hero has $300 behind
UTG has $500
UTG checks, hero checks

River is 6
UTG leads out $75 into $186
Hero??? No major reads on UTG except he played loose and aggressive.
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Hand 2:

Hero has A K in the HJ
UTG from above hand limps EP
SUPER fish in EP (80/40) then raises to $15 (he had raised the last 5 hands and was often going all in PF without looking at his cards, big gambler. Always showed rags.)
A somewhat TAG player to my right who was short ($60) shoved.
Hero has $375

Hero?? (There are 4 players or so to act, eff. stack to act is $100)
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2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-19-2015 , 10:57 PM
Hand 1: Fold pre, ATo is a terrible hand and even worse to a raise, even from a LAG. As played you have to call, but as you can see, you hit your hand and you have no idea where you are in the hand. Don't call raises with **** like this, KQo, QJo, etc.

Hand 2: Flat and hope fish comes along or re-shoves, then snap call.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 01:03 AM
Hand 1: 60/25 you don't fold AT pre. By definition if his PFR is 25% then he's raising hands like A2s or A7o. Flatting is probably best but if you had reads 3 bet works too just keep in mind SPR. Flop bet is fine and bet turn for value (not sure if river bet is good, it might be though). As played call river, you haven't shown much strength.

Hand 2: whatever you have to do to get fish to commit go for it. TAG probably has same read as you so don't worry about his hand, as he'd expand range to get it in with fish.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCCP
Hand 1: 60/25 you don't fold AT pre. By definition if his PFR is 25% then he's raising hands like A2s or A7o.
This means once you account for the two pairs that will come on any flop, you're essentially flipping against fellow aces. We *are* doing well overall against him because we're in pretty good shape on T-high boards, and we have position on a weak range, so if it were just us two at the table, we could profitably flat here.

One problem is that even though we have position, we don't have postflop reads on villain, so it's hard to know how to play flops we miss without the initiative and without a very playable hand.

The even bigger problem is that we still have half the table left to act. If anyone calls IP, then we'll be in middle position of a multiway pot with poor relative position. Even if everyone IP folds and the blinds both call, then we still have total **** relative position with no obvious range advantage and a hand that doesn't have a whole lot of good option on flops it misses.

If we could comfortably iso, that would likely be the best way to proceed, but that's marginal, and the combination of no postflop reads + the possibility that villain's UTG opening range isn't quite as wide as his PFR suggests + the possibility that someone left to act will wake up with a hand probably push that into -EV territory.

I don't think a single person among us is good enough to turn a profit with any of our options here, so I'd just fold.

Postflop: I think the turn check is defensible because, again, we're essentially flipping against Ax, and there aren't a whole lot of draws in his preflop open range, and we might induce lighter calls on the river. Mayhaps a bet is better, but not clearly so.

As played, you must have really let his table talk get to you if this isn't the snappiest of snap calls to ever be snapped off?
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
This means once you account for the two pairs that will come on any flop, you're essentially flipping against fellow aces. We *are* doing well overall against him because we're in pretty good shape on T-high boards, and we have position on a weak range, so if it were just us two at the table, we could profitably flat here.

One problem is that even though we have position, we don't have postflop reads on villain, so it's hard to know how to play flops we miss without the initiative and without a very playable hand.

The even bigger problem is that we still have half the table left to act. If anyone calls IP, then we'll be in middle position of a multiway pot with poor relative position. Even if everyone IP folds and the blinds both call, then we still have total **** relative position with no obvious range advantage and a hand that doesn't have a whole lot of good option on flops it misses.

If we could comfortably iso, that would likely be the best way to proceed, but that's marginal, and the combination of no postflop reads + the possibility that villain's UTG opening range isn't quite as wide as his PFR suggests + the possibility that someone left to act will wake up with a hand probably push that into -EV territory.

I don't think a single person among us is good enough to turn a profit with any of our options here, so I'd just fold.

Postflop: I think the turn check is defensible because, again, we're essentially flipping against Ax, and there aren't a whole lot of draws in his preflop open range, and we might induce lighter calls on the river. Mayhaps a bet is better, but not clearly so.

As played, you must have really let his table talk get to you if this isn't the snappiest of snap calls to ever be snapped off?
This is key. First off, ATo is a bad hand, and is only a 53% favorite against a 25% range. Second, a player with 25% PFR is likely raising less than 25% of his hands UTG. Third, it's not heads-up, there are 5 people left to act behind us. The odds that one of them has a top 10% hand that crushes us is 40% (neglecting card removal, but it can't be that important).
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 10:19 AM
I feel embarrassed I didn't take into account it was a 10 player table. My apologies on that.

Unless he's been opening a decent amount in early position then yeah this is a fold pre. In the second hand you said there was a fish at the table. Were they there the first hand? That changes table dynamics some too, probably not enough to call AT in that spot but something to consider.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 12:20 PM
Hand 1: Fold pre. As played, call river, but it's a crying call -- fold is fine, too (I think the speech indicates he has you beat).

Hand 2: Just call and gii on any flop if it doesn't go in pre.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 03:04 PM
Need to know effective stacks.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 03:16 PM
Stacks are in both hands, just not as clear as they could be. (Unless the $100 in Hand 2 is just the next player, not effective of the hand.)
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 08:28 PM
Results:
Spoiler:
Hand 1: Villain had flopped a set of 3's and his speech was not a reverse tell.

Hand 2: Hero shoved...Unknown guy in LP called all in $100 with QQ, super fish called all in with A6o, TAG had TT, flopped a set, held up.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 09:12 PM
My style varies from TAG to LAG to maniac and I don't ever open A7off from UTG...not even in 6max.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote
11-20-2015 , 10:06 PM
1: Pre depends on your post flop skills, if V is opening a lot of worse hands then call is fine, if not then just fold. AP, ehh. I guess you have to call. I think checking the flop is best tho. you can never get three or really 3 real streets of value so just under rep your hand and bluff catch/ go for value later.

hand 2: IDK i don't wanna just shove cause i wana leave he spewy player room to come over the top, however i also don't wanna make this like 120 and get called and have some awkward spot. If I'm confident post flop and with my BR then I make it 120. If I'm a little shaky then just ship it.
2 hands and a question about ranging multi-way pots Quote

      
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