So both these hands happened at the same table and I feel like they might be put in the same type of category but would love some feedback.

Hand 1 1-3 at Harrahs NOLA 9 handed.

Table formed about 15 minutes before hand so reads on both opponents are somewhat tentative.

Villain 1: Loose passive preflop- limping from most any position. You've seen him limp the BTN with J3o. Post flop he tightens up considerably.

Very first hand of the session might best illustrate our impression of villain: Hero mississippi straddles the Button. Folds to Villain in CO who calls 6. Hero checks.
Board: 964. Check check. Turn: 9. Villain checks, Hero bets, villain calls.
River bricks and checks through. Villain turns over AKss.

Villain 2: friends with villain 1. Also seems like loose passive preflop- you have seen him open limp trash hands on the button as well.

Onto the hand.


Villain 2 limps UTG. Hero raises to 15 with AA in UTG +1. Folds to Villain 1 in BB who calls. Villain 2 calls.
3 players 45 in pot.
JT8r
V1 leads for 20. V2 calls.
V1 has about 120 left after flop bet and V2 has about 200 after flop bet. Hero covers.

Hero???

Is there any merit to raising here or do we call and hope for a safe turn to get it AI with?

Hand 2

Villain is a middle aged asian guy in a sweatshirt. You have been playing with him for about 25 minutes. He has been involved in a few pots without showing anything down and has varied his bet sizing significantly like betting 20 into a 17 pot followed by a 60 into a 57 turn vs betting 11 into a 20 pot. Neither of these went to showdown so we don't know what he had.

You also saw him play the following hand. MP raises to 11 pf. BTN, villain (in SB) calls, UTG limper calls. 4 handed 44 in pot.
Flop: 754ss. checks to BTN who bets 30. Villain calls quickly in SB as does UTG.
Turn: 7 pairing the board. Villain and UTG check. BTN bets 60. they both quickly fold.

So no real reads. Take that for what it is.

instead of posting his missed blind, Hero Mississipi straddles to 6 from CO. BTN calls. Villain in SB calls, 3 other limpers call the 6.
Hero looks down at 62 and checks his option.
6 players (36 in pot)
Flop: 268:
Villain (SB) leads for 30. Folds to Hero. Villain has about 260 left after leading, hero covers.

Hero???

How similar is this hand to the first one? Should we call and wait for a safe turn or raise now?

Thanks guys.

I think these hands are different enough that they should be in separate threads. To me it takes some effort to respond to just one hand, and I feel like responding to this thread is twice as much work. That could explain why you didn't get more responses.

I often respond to threads that don't get many responses but I'm reluctant to tackle these hands because I think they're both difficult enough and different enough to deserve their own thread.

If nobody else responds you might try starting two different threads with these hands.

Edit: Of course if others do respond after I bump this (2 more responses already so maybe you will get a decent number of responses now) then don't start any new threads with these hands lol.

Hand 1... I think i play this hand a little more passively. I like peeling one, then maybe going crazy on turns, but I don't even think I do that.
Obviously if any straight draws get there, I'm not continuing, but I think I'm fine with a flat here, and a calldown from here on.

Hand 2... I think I'm just folding this one and never telling anyone...
Rule #1 DONT GO BROKE IN A LIMPED POT
and by the way it seems this is going, you'll be allin by the river. Maybe hes doing this with a worse hand? (pair and a FD?) but lets be honest here, there is only like 1 good turn card we want to see, otherwise were just strapping ourselves down and calling down the whole way in the dark.

Very different hands.
Hand 1, you have no reads at all. Tough to put V on flopped straight but two pair is v likely. What's a safe turn? Something that doesn't put four parts to a straight on board?
With a bet and a call, you can range one V on top pair and the other on a draw but if V is really so passive that he limped AKss earlier, might have 2 pair.
You have AA and the bigger stacked V has 100bb behind. You can flat and re evaluate turn but raising to 100 seems reasonsable too

Second hand: what's safe card? Non flush, non straight card? Bc a lot of overs are dangerous too. I'd raise to 100. Two pair should be way ahead right now but unlikely to improve and its a wet board.

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the responses so far.
I think these hands are similar because we find ourselves in a not great spot with no good options- specifically- situations where, in both hands, our hands tend to have a lot of value and likely rank to be best at the current moment- but have little change for improvement on later streets.
To make things a bit more uncomfortable- it's hard to come up with a strong combo of weaker hands that our villains bet/call a flop raise- hence me asking the question- is there value in raising here?
Worse still- we are afraid of so many cards coming on the turn in both hands. Hand 1 we don't want to see a Q,K, 9, 7 or J.
In hand 2 we don't want to see an 8, spade, 9, T, or 5. Also- any paint card isn't great for us because it might likely kill our action against one pair type hands that we would otherwise get value from (8X type hands)

So we are sort of damned if we raise and damned if we don't.

Obviously, stack sizes, preflop action, and our (limited) perception of different villains plays a part and makes these hands different on that front.

Hi Pug Walker,

Instead of just calling down in the dark on any turn- couldn't we call the flop and bet/raise any SAFE turn card? essentially by safe I mean any card that isn't an 8, spade, 9,T,5 or 7?

If one of those comes we can reevalute our action (based on if villain bets and how much) though if villain bets big when one of those hits I'm most likely just folding.

Hand 1, I'm raising for value to get value from Jx, Tx, overpairs and straight draws. Effective stacks are less than 100 BB, so I'm planning to GII. Raise to 80 & call a shove.

Hand 2, villain could be betting TP, draws, etc. Based on past history, his range is probably more value-based. I'm raising to 90 and soul-reading a shove.

hi Deathcab,

Thanks for the response. I understand the logic for raise/calling in hand 1- esp because the SB who leads is only playing 40 BB. if we were 100BB+ deep I think its a pretty easy call on the flop followed by reevaluate on the turn.

For hand 2- when you say soul read you mean raise to 90 and than trying to pick up some sort of a tell on your opponent if he shoves?

H1:

Raise to $20+ preflop so that we can brain dead stack off postflop against V2 limper.

Even as played, I'm guessing we should pretty much feel committed postflop. Board ain't great as it obviously has a lotta two pairs / passive sets / straights / draws. And V1 and V2 have both shown interest.

There's $85 in the pot. Any reasonable raise will put V1 all-in, and leave us with a fairly lol amount left for the turn against V2. I'm not convinced any of these guys are going to be able to fold TP / 9x / etc. I think I just a shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG

H2:

I wouldn't straddle.

I don't feel great about it, but with this SPR and the fact that the straddle did effectively shorten stacks, I think I feel committed here. I raise to like $110 to setup a turn shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Hand 1 I'm raising if we're 100bb deeper +. If our opponent is on a draw or is willing to give us action with worse, let's get value now.

Hand 2, you hit the nail on the head.

I dont really like raise folding here even if we only do it sometimes. the reason being- we still don't know- when villain 3bets AI if he is doing this with sets, combo draws, better two pairs or if he's overrepping his 8X, weirdly played OPs or even just a FD or SD and sometimes we will be folding the best hand which is horrible.

If we knew that villain had a wide leading range here but was very nitty with his 3betting on the flop- than maybe I can see an argument that advocates raise/folding but that requires us to really have our villain's tendencies down-which we dont here. He's essentially an unknownish player.

So I would rather raise/call than raise/reevaluate.
But I haven't dismissed just calling this flop bet as the most EV play.

For hand 2, I think just calling has a lot of merit to it: namely- by just calling we are keeping in a whole lot of hands that would (correctly) fold to our raise.
Moreover, I think it's a less high variance play as it allows us to see the turn card before we play for stacks.
If the turn bricks off and villain bets his straight/flush draw and we shove (or essentially shove) he's put in a tough spot with a hand with decent equity but not good enough to call.
Whereas if we raise the flop, he will feel fine just shoving those hands.

the downside to just calling is we, obv allow villain to catchup with his drawing hands, we will also sometimes fold the best hand when a scare comes and villain bluffs us out of the pot.

Hand 2 I hollywood for a minute then say "make it $130" and then beat him into the pot with the rest of my chips when he says all in and scoop it like most of the time.