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2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1

10-10-2015 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
I would have 3bet pre flop, we can't always depend on flush draws (which is only half of a made hand) or an ace (when we don't know how good our kicker is)

as played I am checking back the turn

River - at best I am calling, never raising there. The lead out actually looks like we're no good anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
The big problem with the hand is that I don't see a plan with it. It starts pf with ATs. Why are you calling? If you thought you were ahead or even, then you should be 3 betting. If behind, why are you calling with 2 other players in the pot already? You don't have have any OESD possibilities and the flush draw coming in is super obvious.

I understand you're deep, but your real money makers in that situation are mid-range connectors where he's going to get an OP, 2P or a set and not be able to get away from your straight.
I don't get the hate for preflop. ATs plays great multiway and we have position. Sure 3-betting is fine also but it's not like it's bad to flat IP preflop.

As played I think the river raise is fine but I think you need to make it a bit bigger to get Ax to fold.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote
10-10-2015 , 09:25 PM
Results:

Spoiler:
I thought V would fold everything worse than AK and call with everything AK or better, but it's pretty hard for him to have two pair here. He flipped over AK pretty quickly and threw it in the muck, did not expect that but he must have just decided to b/f without thinking through it too much. Really surprised that he didn't call.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote
10-11-2015 , 07:20 AM
Freaking awesome! And here I thought the battle ends like this only in the movies!

I would like to thank everyone who made some insightful posts. My friends & I have talked at length about this one.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote
10-11-2015 , 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
The big problem with the hand is that I don't see a plan with it. It starts pf with ATs. Why are you calling? If you thought you were ahead or even, then you should be 3 betting. If behind, why are you calling with 2 other players in the pot already? You don't have have any OESD possibilities and the flush draw coming in is super obvious.

I understand you're deep, but your real money makers in that situation are mid-range connectors where he's going to get an OP, 2P or a set and not be able to get away from your straight.
Pre is fine.

I'd much rather have ATs than a mid suited connector. ATs has suitedness, high card value, and some connectedness. Middle suited connectors are almost never "real money makers." Their card value is too weak, and deep, they face RIO. And while they have some straight value, certainly that's not going to be such a huge % of their value. And either way, ATs has straight value, too, making a nut straight with K,Q,J that can't ever become a non-nut straight (unlike with lower connectors, which if made before the river, can always become non-nut straights depending on run-out). And on a board with K,Q,J, it's nice to make a nut hand that blocks very little facing an EP open that can make all sorts of second-best hands.

I'm not 3-betting. I really don't think I'm 3-betting much facing the EP open. Maybe you could 3-bet some of those weaker suited connectors, but I probably wouldn't. Probably just 3-betting a nutted value range. I think all AXs are too strong here (stack depth, position, ranges) to 3-bet/fold bluff. In other words, I'm not 3-betting a merged range, and a lot of hands (AXs, SCs, PP) are in that range. You could 3-bet a polarized range, but I'm not seeing enough of a dynamic to suggest that. So possibly just QQ+, AK, and maybe even tigger.

Last edited by Willyoman; 10-11-2015 at 09:39 AM.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote
10-11-2015 , 09:40 AM
I like this. WP.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote
10-11-2015 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
Pre is fine.
Just to add two things:

1) Two pair is an extremely underrated consideration round these parts, especially in spots with deep stacks and/or cheap prices preflop. When you hit two pair with ATs, there are at most 5 combos that beat you, and you have TPGK dominated. When you hit two pair with T9s, a) it's less likely to be top two, and b) you're extracting value from overpair, which has a ton of equity against you.

Not like this matters because you should snap flat with both hands in this spot.

2) Stack depth and SPR work really differently when you're deep. You control the size of the pot. If you don't want to play a given hand for 200bbs, then don't raise at any point, and so long as they don't like cbet, then c/r turn, you're in pretty good shape. So hands that make bottom set, top two, and mid flushes are in much better shape IP than OOP deep.

Oh and T9 also makes the nuts on J87 and QJ8.
2/5NL: River bluffing paired ace board to fold a chop vs capped range?  Part 1 Quote

      
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