thats even worse.

i agree V1 usually has a hand here. which means we're very likely to see another bet on the turn. that sucks b/c we're not happy about our hand there unless we see a diamond or an 8.

i don't think raising or calling is terrible either way.

no it wouldn't.

It would be awesome.

no no no no no no no.

what if the guy behind you (or V2) has bigger diamonds.

you raising to get him to fold is awesome.

It really doesn't matter?

What if V1 has a range of 66/77/99/97/T8 (i.e. all hands that have 0 FE since hands like 76/97/86/87/98 all have fold equity).

V2 has bigger diamonds and/or pair+SD.

And Assume the 2 guys behind us fold

Board: 9h 7d 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.432% 30.33% 00.11% 372978 1296.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 52.769% 51.72% 01.05% 636116 12888.00 { 99, 77-66, T8s, 97s, T8o, 97o }
Hand 2: 16.799% 15.86% 00.94% 195016 11592.00 { 88, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qs3s, Qd2d, 98s, 86s+, 98o, 86o+ }


Our equity is good for a call. However, if a diamond rolls off on the turn (assuming it's not the 5 of diamonds) and then we get heavy action..

Board: 9h 7d 6d 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 09.000% 09.00% 00.00% 1134 0.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 10.000% 10.00% 00.00% 1260 0.00 { 99, 77-66, T8s, 97s, T8o, 97o }
Hand 2: 81.000% 81.00% 00.00% 10206 0.00 { AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qs3s, Qd2d }

Our equity goes to ****.

And assuming V1 only continues with a set on a diamond turn:

Board: 9h 7d 6d 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 07.619% 07.62% 00.00% 288 0.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 23.810% 23.81% 00.00% 900 0.00 { 99, 77-66 }
Hand 2: 68.571% 68.57% 00.00% 2592 0.00 { AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qs3s, Qd2d }




But if we raise flop, we knock higher diamonds out (of course, we're never knocking out higher diamonds that have another draw to go with it (i.e. Kd9d/Kd8d/Kd5d), and we have higher equity vs V1 hand:

Board: 9h 7d 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.625% 40.49% 00.14% 12025 40.50 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 59.375% 59.24% 00.14% 17594 40.50 { 99, 77-66, T8s, 97s, T8o, 97o }


And assuming V1 is leading all 2 pair+ hands and folding 76/96 to our raise (6.2% of possible hands leading out and 3betting/continuing with 3.8% of hands), he is folding 38% of the time.

sometimes you guys amaze me. Bigger diamonds are going to fold in what seems to be a big multiway pot? You must be kidding me.

Not to mention we do not have SDV.

You're telling me that if V2 has A4 of diamonds he is going to call 500 when we raise to 175, and V1 shoves?

Please do go on.

Also, us have no SDV IS A REASON TO RAISE!!!

If we had AdTd, I'd call here to keep in lower diamonds. Even though we have roughly the same amount of equity as JTdd (39.8 vs 40.6%)

IMO, u have done a ton of math for naught. Raising this flop is not the optimum way to play this hand. I will just let it go and agree to disagree whole heartedly with your thought process border.

That's fine. Keep bringing down the intelligence level of this forum.
This forum is filled with LOL live hands.

And then people wonder how people get absurd winrates live when THE people that post here are 5 times as bad as people that play online and that must mean the people that DON'T post on here are 50 times as bad.

Keep disbelieving the math.

u see, we have polarized thinking. having very little FE and no SDV says we must make our hand to win. In that case, we do better EV wise by keeping players in, not knocking them out.

We just view poker totally differently border, thats all.

How do we have very little fold equity??!?!?

I just told you V1 is going to fold 38% of the time if he has 76/96. Also he might fold 97 a decent % of the time as well.

You're right in that we view poker totally differently. You view it as wild statements like "ZERO FE" with no proof to back it up and I view it with math to back up my claim.

Are you religious by any chance?

See PM.

fwiw, V2 folded AQ

hahahahahahhahahahahha.

HOW DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO GET PWNED ANL. ???!!

this is so childish. This forum is filled with guys like you making these foolish retorts.

First, we dont really know V2 folded AQss. We have to take V2s word for it since he could not show his hand during the hand. Second, if V2 folded the hand, he is worse than terrible and this might happen 1 time in 100. So are you going to go off of results of one hand and stand on that as a foundation?

Please, just post your replies and i will do the same, i already have your story pretty well summed up from our PM.

Yeah, you call me bad and then you call me a child.

Are you by any chance related to phil hellmuth?

How is folding AQdd here "terrible"?

V1 460 + OUR 480 + 100 pre / 460 = 1040 / 460 V2 call = 2.26 to 1 = 30.67% equity needed. Also, in OP statement, he said both villains cover him, so you'd need more equity than that.
Board: 9h 7d 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.686% 38.54% 00.15% 1044 4.00 { Th8c }
Hand 1: 35.843% 35.70% 00.15% 967 4.00 { 99 }
Hand 2: 25.471% 25.32% 00.15% 686 4.00 { AdQd }


Board: 9h 7d 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 10.004% 10.00% 00.00% 271 0.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 70.469% 70.47% 00.00% 1909 0.00 { 99 }
Hand 2: 19.528% 19.53% 00.00% 529 0.00 { AdQd }


Again, you're making asinine statements, with nothing to back it up while I have math on my side.

your ranges are so far off i cant even comment.

ok, we have 3 pages of replies and we have a fairly controversial polarized answer between border and i.

We have both given our reasons, as well as others, and now i would request for OPs sake that we vote on whether to call flop or raise flop.

Which do you think is better after reading all that has been posted and lets try and give OP a definitive answer for at least this portion of the hand.

fail.

OBV im advising to call flop.

I'm talking about 3 pages.

How about you set posts to page to 100.

the guy showed his hand to the player next to him as he folded. there was a small argument that his actions could have influenced my action.

forget voting for this, btw. ty for the discussion, and i think you can make a case for both. but i prefer playing it fast for FE and max value. i don't want two pair folding the turn if 4 to a straight or diamonds hit. plus i'm a bit of a shove-monkey and like to play for stacks.

Can you kindly point me in the right direction to do this?

my 2+2, edit options -> Number of Posts to Show Per Page -> 100 posts

Thanks and that was easy and avoids having to click back and forth and back and forth...