Hero just sat down at the table with 300, and my second hand in doubled up thru a crazy arabic guy.

Hero (Covers) Just sat down at the table, has shown only 1 hand out of the 6 hes played, and that was a set of 4's

Villain (500) Seems to be running over the table for the most part. He will raise to 20 preflop, get 5 callers then bet small OTF, OTT, and OTR. (25, 45, 55) Will even L/C a 3-bet OOP.

History Hero raised to $20 with 44 got 4 callers, flop Q47 hero bets 45, villain raises allin, hero calls, board runs out blank, blank, and hero shows set, villain mucks.

Hand
Hero is dealt A4 in the BB.
V1 raises to 20, call, call, call, call, hero calls in the BB for 15 more.

Flop ($120)

K74

Hero checks, villain bets 25, all fold around to hero who calls.

Turn ($170)

K74 - A

Hero leads out for 60, villain raises to 200, hero...?

Villain has ~$255 left after this raise.

No, we are never folding, but against this kind of V I prefer to let him value-town himself, rather than donking turn.

AP, I just flat this raise and keep his range wide and let him shove river. AK is in his range here, but so are any TPGK hands, imo.

This is an easy ship in my opinion, he raises to 200 the pot is now 430 and he only has 250 left, theres no way stacks aren't going in on the river so be the aggressor and put him to a decision for all his chips.

Too bad we dont know what he raises with and his bet sizing history, but $20 from a crazy arabic guy is usually a pretty weak hand, they tend to bet big preflop when then have a real hand.

This hand is just too strong to get away, you beat too many hands. If he has the AK or whatever then that sucks, i dont see how folding is correct here, I fist pump and shove

Yea you're right, I wouldn't shove on the turn I would let him value-town himself on the river, If he checks, bet 250, if he bets raise him all-in.

We are OOP. Should we just flat OTT then just donk shove OTR?

No, I'd call and c/c OTR. He's almost sure to shove it in for you.

OP stated that Villain tends to bet really small, so he's likely not shoving the river he might bet something like 50-100...

That being said, do we just call or shove over-the-top and why?

Reading through this hand made me feel I had to drop my two cents and see what you guys think...I think this line from this villain just seems like value, the hand example you gave you lead out and he shoved , what I took from that since he didn't show is that he either had a flush draw or top pair or a bluff and decided to get agro, now here he is raising half his stack rather than going for the shove, I feel like your 60 polarized his raise , we can't just think on level one (not offending anyone though process!!) And say I have two pair all in, we gotta think of his range now with this action which does look a lot like ak, a7, 44, 77, maybe a random got there with a10 or aq but that's pretty much all we beat against this new action, and if he did choose to try to bluff you out, do you think he's capable of this line as a bluff?? I think i find a fold here, not making it 60 and getting raised would have keep his range much more open for value towning him but now it looks like he's value towning you, I feel like this is a pretty common scenario I would love to see what you think about my thought process there.

This kind of V seriously overvalues TP. I expect there's a LOT of AT, AJ, and AQ in his range.

If we check river and he bets anything less than a shove, I shove over it for value.

As played, flat turn, then if we aren't counterfeited shove river. If we call a c/r on turn and V has AQ, AJ there is no way he's shoving river and he'll just check back. Similarly, we are never folding to a river shove, so, we have to be the one to shove river, its way too likely V checks back river

Shove Turn before something happens like a river 7 to kill your excitement. I mean what is so dam hard.

Yeah I fold the flop.

this doesn't make sense. If we are in a situation on turn where V is going to call our river shove 100% of the time (or an insanely high percentage of the time) why would we ever shove turn when we can wait for river, ensure we are still golden, and THEN shove. Now, if we were in a situation where a scare card could kill our action on river then sure, shove turn. However, there really is no scare cards for us on river, but rather "losing" cards for us on river. Thus, its to our advantage to see river and ensure there are no losing cards, and THEN shove.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of floating here and would fold flop, if we were 200bb deep and had a V that shut down after getting called on flop or was passive we could float. But at 100bb and against an aggressive V, its better to just fold flop most cases...

TBH, the call pf was marginal. Several reasons come to mind. First, the villain has a wide range from the description. Against 5 villains from his perspective, he's not going to think second pair is any good. To have good implied odds, you need to have a villain that you are confident will have a hand on the flop. We don't have that here.

Second, Hero is playing bingo. Unless he hits his hand hard, he can't fold out TP which has to call on all but the most dangerous of boards. And that's the third problem. The nut hand that Hero can make on the flop is the board that TP can drop. His chances of hitting 2pair+ is only a little over 4%. Hitting TP means everyone folds that can't beat it or getting beat by a better hand.

Finally, Hero is at the turn with what is just about the best possible scenario and has to debate folding. If you hit your speculative hand and can't get the money in when the SPR was about 4 on the flop, you had no business playing it in the first place.

You mean the call on the flop correct?

Fwiw I think the call pf is fine. At worst it is 0 EV. Calling with A4os is a big leak though.

He is getting 7-to-1 on his flop call with a suited Ace. I am as nitty as nitty can be but why is that a bad call pre?

calling preflop with nut flush and wheel draw hand when closing action getting 8:1 is a 100000% call. granted, you don't ship it when you pair your ace.
I like the call on the flop, with nut disguised 2% backdoor flush draw&disguised 2 pair draw.
But don't forget that you are the last to act after everyone folds. Villain may consider this a sherrif type scenario, and the meta from this is the only way i would every find a call on that turn and the fact that he made it 3.3x which is either bluff or protection...otherwise, i don't like the donk bet on turn. One of the most important lessons i've learned is that when you bluff catch, you must continue to play your hand as a bluff catch no matter how nutty it gets.
obviously, you led to get value from a KX that would check behind in two streets and it backfired. im folding because i dont want to call another $255 on the river. although a 3bet shove will obviously get all bluffs to fold

OOP is reason 1.

if we hit our A with this much action, how much are we committing?

if we hit our 4 (as we did) it should be a fold.

if we flop two clubs, do we have to go with it?

the odds of flopping a flush or straight are slim.

i'd call pre most of the time, but i understand why it isn't a +EV call in the long run.

The call PF is at worst 0 EV and if you are calling and ****ing stacking off with TP then good luck.

what... this is a dream scenario in odds. the only time he gets stacked is flop comes a4k vs ak/kk or 447 against 77. it's called outplaying the flop. obv he calls flush draws for the right odds, and the straight draw is only to help a combo pair/flush draw.
worst case scenario, flop comes ace high on a wet board. then i'd even evaulate a flop call

You're getting 7:1 odds pf and are 25:1 to hit your hand hard enough to play. If you hit your FD, you need 4:1 to call to see another card. You're not getting paid if you hit. If someone makes a PSB, you need two other callers to see another card. If someone makes a 1/2 PSB, you need one other caller. Odds of that happening are slim to none.

The only reason the call is marginal vs. bad is that there are so many people in the pot and the SPR is so low that you can hit 2 pair and have TP call for stacks. If there is a chance you're going to fold 2 pair, then it is a fold pf.

Another consideration is that when you have a raise and multiple callers, somebody or two people are likely to have an ace as well. That dramatically cuts back on your odds of hitting. If Hero had something like 87s or even 75s, I'd be happier about calling.

Enough posts about is my calls preflop and OTF are correct. Thats not the question im asking here.

I swear all 2+2 is now is just a bunch of people saying "FOLD PRE!@#!"

Listen: asking what to do on the turn is like a fat person asking what to do when they have diabetes.

The problem here isn't that you have diabetes, its that you are a fatass.

Given villain description (likes to barrel) why did you donk turn? Also you should have a plan for getting raised before you lead

this is terrible advice. Do not expect 3 barrels from villains in live FR games

once again, bad advice.

0 EV is not always the best play. If you think you show a positive expectation by playing A4cc OOP, and say you think your positive expectation is 2bbs, then 2bbs vs 0 bbs....youre costing yourself 2bbs by folding.

Id say WP on all streets and you should tank shove.

Also whenever you opened with 44 over limpers, I doubt anyone cares or is going to pay attention to what you had and how you played. Its certainly not going to have a large effect on how they play vs you.

I would also be concerned about 4x pre with 44 from MP