Villian in this hand is a whale who seems to have gone off the deep end and is 3betting relentlessly from any position and nailed some hands and won heaps without showdown. I've been mostly card dead and folding a lot trying to pick my spots as v has 3b to 120 250 and other ridiculous amounts

The game is playing very deep. We have been here for 6 hours or so and watched as one whale after another have come to the game and bled money.There is well over 30k on the table and it's attracting the deeper pockets in the room.

I'm on 2100 but compared to the rest of the table I'm Short. There are 2 guys who have over 7k and another with over 10k

Villian worked his stack up to 5k at one point but he made a horrific river call on KKxxx board where it was obvious the other guy had AK and that set him off on a 3betting, overbetting rampage.

Villian opens to 65 with around 3.5k folds to hero (2100) on SB who looks down at AK

BB is a loose player who loves to see flops, will call light just to get into a pot with villain. Will not flinch if 3b

Hero?

Is there a straddle on?
3-bet obv, I like 200, it sounds like V is going to call and try to outplay you regardless of your sizing (bar something ridiculous like you making it 500) it also disincentives v2 from getting in the hand (what is his stack?). If v1 4-bets you, IMO, i'm going with it and ripping...if v1 is truly a aggro whale seems like pre- is an easy 3bet/gii (assuming v2 folds)

$200 - $250 here.

Raise every time. I'd go $200 - $250 and lean toward $250 if that's what V is generally raising to. Get as much money in as possible right now.

v2 has about 4k and will peel almost everyrhing playable since villian1 is spewing and he has position on me.

hero calls, v2 calls

logic of flatting is because v is still raising UTG, v2 diesnt care how much he gets in pre, he is a whale himself loves to gamble, really didnt expect him to fold to often to any action i make. in fact i believe he would call worse aces and kings if i flat but fold em if i raise

secondly, in a normal hand v1 would raise to 20 or 25 and i would 3b to 65 so the 3b has already been made for me

we also keep worse aces and kings in

i also feel v1 is terrible and it has to be a slight edge to get him into a flop

not that i mind 3b but i didnt want a 3way pot and be committed post flop.and oop

also expect v1 to cbet 100% of flops

flop KT8

hero?

Check?...

In this whole sordid tale of both hands, whenever anyone suggests a line you didn't take, you get into a very defensive rationalization to defend your action.

Most of us would have raised and you called. That's fine. We'll move on to the next action. But if you seriously want to argue that calling out of position is better, put some numbers behind it. Right now V2 is ATC. What % of that will he continue if you 3 bet? What % if you flat?

And is V2 continuing with a bad hand all that bad for you? Isolating is great, but V1 being a purported maniac could well keep the preflop action going, turning V2's weak calls into dead money.

AP, I probably donk bet because of V2. Decent assumption he is checking all his hands to V1 if V1 is a lock to continue. If we try a check/call line, we could price in more of V2's draws, and throw dead money into a big check/raise by V2 when he has a hand ahead of us. Puts him in a much worse spot to be facing a bet right off.

And if V1 is a maniac, is he really going to stop bluffing based on one flop donk bet from someone who flat called in the blind? This is the guy you told us hates to fold post flop.

This is a some really damaging thinking and almost certainly a leak in all three spots.

Sure, you do need to assess what a 65 open actually means from V and whether or not that sizing is a more function of range or just tilt.
But once you do so, you need to recognize that you are short stacking a de facto 5T/T20 hybrid game, you have the effective nuts against a tilting whale, and there is nothing you want more than to get committed asap, and he just gave you the opportunity to do so.

Yeah I mean I butchered this hand pre but pre isn't as important as people think. This hand gets super interesting and 3betting or calling was actually trivial compared to what transpires.

The BB is going to play most of the time. If I 3b here I like 250 because that's about the amount I feel makes BB think twice...but that turns into an overbet

So what I'm saying is, I can't think of a price that both isolates v1 and values my hand properly. V2 is calling with any suited gapper, pp, any Ax, suited broadways, and connectors if I flat, folding Ax suited Kx if I raise.

Another spot where I'm folding out everything I want to trap OOP.

Also, the pot is already big, the table is playing with huge variance, why not try and control the pot size opp?

Hero checks, v2 checks, v1 165, hero?

+1

And not 3 betting pre i find really questionable with described conditions /dynamics/villains.

Sorry but that's all excuses. Huge mistake flatting pre, as others have said.

Fair enough.

Pre actually didn't matter. People on monkey tilt pick up hands. Had I 3 bet got it in I double up. But then this is never a thread.

Thoughts on flop?

Pre does matter alot, and its a big mistake to tell yourself it doesent. Infact many successful pros will argue that pre is by far the most important point in the hand, for example LA legend Limon have an epic quote regarding that. Just like in 9-ball, the first shot set up the next one and so on.

Youre a new poster here so i dont wanna come across as harsh, just giving you my opinion.

I'm still a little unclear about why it is a bad thing if V2 calls a raise with a marginal hand ... Increases variance ... little harder to play, but you are getting him to put money in the pot without the equity to do so. That's good, right?

Honestly I've been posting for a long time and I love posting here. My game correlates well to posting in this forum, so it's a selfish endeavor.

I'm holding up some hands not to get advice but to make sure I'm playing differently than everyone else. The fact that I flatter pre when everyone is raising makes me happy. Makes it harder for anyone to read me.

I am posting to get thoughts and esp math so if you got anything about the math I'm all ears

And no, hold em is not really a preflop game. I hate ppl who tank pre. It's by far easiest (and most trivisl) Street as deep as we are. If I were Short it'd be important. I'm still stuck a lot of money in this game, so happy to play a 200 pot 3 way rather than 600 when v1 will make a lot of mistakes.

So if you are already stuck 4k you just gonna toss 200 more in?

Consider all of the action, my mental state, table dynamics

Yes, it is sometimes good to play hands differently than most players -- especially when you're up against a good thinking player who is likely to interpret your play in a vacuum and play against it as they would against the player pool at large...

However, 3betting premiums against spewy villains is done by everyone here for good reason. It's the most profitable way to play these hands.

Ok truth is...im stuck 4k rn and more than happy with pot size. Did not want to bloat this pot OOP for bankroll reasons. And I'm playing uber tight looking to trap. I don't think it's a terrible strategy. I might have flatted AA in this exact spot. Not optimum? Sure. Not a profit? Doubt it

This wouldn't have been a thread at all had I 3bet so...on with the hand....

Cannot even continue reading after you flatted. This is what you've been waiting for, and you flat pre? Game over.

OK, I went back and glanced at your posts. We cannot help you. Take it to BBV. Sorry to be so blunt, but this forum is for advice on how to make the most money and play the best you can. Pre is never moot. 3betting and calling in this position have huge differences. Huge. You should have raised, and that is just a fact. Make all the excuses you want, but not raising was a HUGE mistake.

Now, admit that, and maybe we can help.

Or, stop playing deep and/or getting stuck. Seriously.

I prefer post flop poker also but your playing a whale that is bloating every pot. Flatting with AK will be profitable but it's just pushing your high variance situations to post flop. If you don't want to play high variance poker then leaving is your best move.

In any case, move on with the hand.

Mental game leaks showing up here and improper bankroll management. You def should not be playing in this game under these conditions.

Your technical game suffered as a result of these mental game leaks, and this is as glaringly obvious based on your thought process and action IN GAME, and even still now with your REaction to the very helpful and positive reinforcement strategy advice you've received from all the people that 'play different than you'

There's also no way 3bet pots weren't commonplace with these stacks. Anyway all you do now is ck-c ck-c ck-c your best 1p hands by way of having flatted pre.

completely agree. was not playing my best game

however i brought 8k to the game and have lost half of it and picking up from this game is seriously -ev...so im br managing to stay at a juicy table

@aman andaplan...sorru man but ive beem reading you for years and you aint good at poker and just spewing nonsense

there ARE good plsyers in here...they cant post coz of you and ppl.like you

you will always be terrible at this game stop pretending and im just going to ignore you

If the point is just to tell a funny story, get to the punchline already.

1) Mixing it up is fine and important from time to time, and if its executed for the correct reasons- but it does not apply here as we have other playing dynamic conditions that weightens far more. Like we have the opportunity of our lifes to go for the fattest value their is by bombing this pre with the virtual nutz against described crazy whale villain, that should be the only thing we think about in this hand.

2) If youre not bankrolled properly and is afraid to lose your stack thats totally different problems seperated from the teqhnical execution of the hand itself. If youre not rolled you need to get up and cash out, and if youre scared of losing your deep stack that is a mental leak/problem.

3) Pre being an important street have nothing to do with you tilting by people who tanks and slow down the game pre. That street is important for whole other sets of reasons, because it make the foundation for how the complete hand plays out. Its pretty ignorant of you to say that you dont believe this, when some really accomplished well known pros have stressed the issue of how important of a street preflop is.