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2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff 2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff

04-07-2015 , 03:18 AM
Table is going for about 30 hours but Hero is on the table for about 4, villain for 1 hour. It isn't best table, because 4-5 solid regs are there, but two big fishes with 300bb+ stacks.

Villain (3800) is about 30-35, obviously rich or has a big bankroll. Can't say if he is a pro or just plays ok game and makes money in normal life too. He has always nice shirt, talkative, feels very comfortable on the table, plays higher when possible too. But plays usual amount of hands for better player at these stakes, is fairly aggresive and I would say winning player. Played with him 3-4 times and he always bought in with amount so he would cover everyone. Now he came and bought in for 4000.

Hero (1600) is 30 but looks a bit younger, has been playing 2/5 for few months after one year break from poker. Usually buys in for 500, when game is good for 1000. Tonight he is very tight on early positions, looser and aggresive on late positions. Villain can think of hero as young, online guy who is a little bit money scared, but knows how to play.

Hand:
Younger reg (900) opens utg to 15 (saw him do that with KK, but also JTss), reg (800) calls utg 1, big fish with 2500 calls CO, Hero calls 6s5c on BTN, Villain calls on BB.

Flop (77) 6c5h2c, utg cbets 40, utg1 calls, fish folds, hero raises to 170, villain on BB thinks for 20-30 seconds and calls, others fold.
Turn (495) 6c5h2c Jh, villain checks, hero bets 340, villain thinks for 5-10 seconds and calls.
River (1175) 6c5h2cJh Jc, villain checks after 2-3 seconds, hero (has 1075 behind). Action?

Hero has almost zero showdown value, so is it a mandatory shove here?
I think in villain's range isnt 55/66 cause he would click it back if not on the flop, then on the turn for sure and also there are only two combos of it - but do the blockers for 55/66 make even difference when thinking of his range in this spot? He shouldn't be able to call with a flush. A straight he would usually raise on previous streets too I think. So...

1. Do you guys agree that his range here is mostly 22 and 65 which is very difficult to call a shove with?
2. Does it make big difference when ranging him if Hero would play the hand with let say Ac4c or 78o?

Thank you for your thoughts.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-07-2015 , 06:08 AM
I don't think there's enough behind to try to bluff him off a flush or 22. Would be a nice spot for an overbet, like 2x pot, but w/ PSB left and since you can still have some perceived pure bluffs like 78o I think it's a give up.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-07-2015 , 06:19 AM
If you know you're one of the best players at the table, then I dont mind pf. If you don't know if you're one of the best players at the table, then don't call marginal hands looking for implied odds position against competent v's at 2/5. You said the table had regs right? Are the reg fishes or reg 2/5 players? Calling pf with pp and sc's in the right spots are one thing, but calling them in the right spots against certain 2/5 regs who won't pay you off is another. If you l/c with a pp into a multi-way pot and x/r an average flop, don't expect to get paid off by some of these competent 2/5 v's. They're different from 1/2 fishes. If the table is splashy, then by all means. But again, if you know you're one of the best at the table and can navigate post-flop well against some of these v's the I don't mind pf.

Flop is fine. Spr is ridiculous so we're not playing for stacks. If we get raised anywhere, with this kind of flop, we can peel against some v's and fold against the others.

Turn is fine.

River is so ugly. I hate checking back otr on raised pots like this but we might have to. 34 was there all along. Anything 77+ is better. Clubs got there. It's disgusting. 34 might not lead here. Clubs might not either. There's probably no fe ehat-so-ever at this spot since he c/c every damn street.

Sigh op. Just check.

Someone tell me I'm wrong please.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-07-2015 , 07:00 AM
I really don't like getting into this spot with 65o, even on button. Raised pot, competent players, this is not a good hand. Stacks are deep which might make it more playable but you'd have to think you have a lot of edge. I'd let his go preflop.
As played, you were aggressive on flop and turn with nice big bets and he called. Now the board sucks, and your hand does not look like a flush. Maybe this line looks like a flopped set that's now a full house, so you could do a half pot or 3/4 pot bet but V sounds sticky and likely to call. I think I'd save my chips to value bet him later when I have a hand. You have show down value (beat 87 and ace high hands). I wouldn't shovel more chips in here.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-07-2015 , 09:58 AM
Pre-flop I can go either way. I'd probably fold, but playing it is fine. Flop and turn are good; however, river sucks and I just check back. I don't think he's folding anything that beats you (or chops) -- he might sigh-call, but he won't fold.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-07-2015 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickeypowell5
If you know you're one of the best players at the table, then I dont mind pf. If you don't know if you're one of the best players at the table, then don't call marginal hands looking for implied odds position against competent v's at 2/5. You said the table had regs right? Are the reg fishes or reg 2/5 players? Calling pf with pp and sc's in the right spots are one thing, but calling them in the right spots against certain 2/5 regs who won't pay you off is another. If you l/c with a pp into a multi-way pot and x/r an average flop, don't expect to get paid off by some of these competent 2/5 v's. They're different from 1/2 fishes. If the table is splashy, then by all means. But again, if you know you're one of the best at the table and can navigate post-flop well against some of these v's the I don't mind pf.

Flop is fine. Spr is ridiculous so we're not playing for stacks. If we get raised anywhere, with this kind of flop, we can peel against some v's and fold against the others.

Turn is fine.

River is so ugly. I hate checking back otr on raised pots like this but we might have to. 34 was there all along. Anything 77+ is better. Clubs got there. It's disgusting. 34 might not lead here. Clubs might not either. There's probably no fe ehat-so-ever at this spot since he c/c every damn street.

Sigh op. Just check.

Someone tell me I'm wrong please.
Pretty much this, although I'm definitely in the fold pre camp. Although this situation isn't the worst given the small raise, multiple callers, and the fact that we have position... calling pre-flop with these types of hands is almost certainly a leak.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-08-2015 , 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel9861
I don't think there's enough behind to try to bluff him off a flush or 22. Would be a nice spot for an overbet, like 2x pot, but w/ PSB left and since you can still have some perceived pure bluffs like 78o I think it's a give up.
A bit agree, but on the other hand, it isn't common to have 600bb pots in this game. So the shove on the river, which is about 200bb is huge bet and from tight player as myself, it screams a lot of strenght - also I see now, that most of the players here would check behind my hand, so villain in the hand might think similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickeypowell5
If you know you're one of the best players at the table, then I dont mind pf. If you don't know if you're one of the best players at the table, then don't call marginal hands looking for implied odds position against competent v's at 2/5. You said the table had regs right? Are the reg fishes or reg 2/5 players? Calling pf with pp and sc's in the right spots are one thing, but calling them in the right spots against certain 2/5 regs who won't pay you off is another. If you l/c with a pp into a multi-way pot and x/r an average flop, don't expect to get paid off by some of these competent 2/5 v's. They're different from 1/2 fishes. If the table is splashy, then by all means. But again, if you know you're one of the best at the table and can navigate post-flop well against some of these v's the I don't mind pf.
...
I wouldn't play on the table if I don't think I'm one of the better players there. Also the call of 65o isn't standard by the book, but with this hand I'm ok against UTG/UTG1 ranges (in terms that we will not hit same flops/boards that much) and I'm happy to play pot against biggest fish (CO) in position which is the main reason by the call. Also SB is tight player who doesn't 3bet often and BB will be happy to call usually and will not squeeze often. So I would argue that call here is ok so deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish
I really don't like getting into this spot with 65o, even on button. Raised pot, competent players, this is not a good hand. Stacks are deep which might make it more playable but you'd have to think you have a lot of edge. I'd let his go preflop.
As played, you were aggressive on flop and turn with nice big bets and he called. Now the board sucks, and your hand does not look like a flush. Maybe this line looks like a flopped set that's now a full house, so you could do a half pot or 3/4 pot bet but V sounds sticky and likely to call. I think I'd save my chips to value bet him later when I have a hand. You have show down value (beat 87 and ace high hands). I wouldn't shovel more chips in here.
I don't quite agree. PF I explained above. On the river I think I can't bet half or 3/4 of the pot. It can just tell him I want to actually bluff. If I have 55/66 in this situation, I would always shove. Also showdown value...I don'know. He might have 87o in the range, which I beat, fine. But it must be very difficult for him to call with his flushes and 22. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't I think. Again, when we see how many people would check here behind with 56, 34, maybe even flush, then why should we not bet? He isn't usual fish who sees flush as the nuts or doesn't see other full houses etc.

But I'm opened to discussion obviously and thankful for all the responses. So if we switch the situations and put hero in shoes of villain with let's say 22/78cc, would hero as BB play differently from actual hand and would he check/call river shove here?
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-08-2015 , 03:15 AM
I think amount of fold equity will mainly depend on your image and V's tendencies. If you're calling raises with 65o your image is probably not very good and V's abilities are unknown so we don't know if he's capable of making big laydowns or not.
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-08-2015 , 03:42 AM
V seems to be there for entertainment. So he'll have a lot of draws in his range. I don't see many made hands that would call a shove. And it's unlikely that the business man looking for a good time will check a flush on the river there. I think you are behind, but have quite a bit of fold equity. On close decisions, I'll always choose the aggressive path. Shove. You will be surprised the stuff people fold. Epically the business man looking for a good time. Because getting shoved on for a monster shove is not a good time. If he calls. Oh well, that's why you need a bank roll. Shove then hide and pray! Lol

Masta--
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote
04-10-2015 , 03:02 AM
Result:
Spoiler:
I bet 890 and villain folds in less than 5 seconds. He says to his friend he folded full house. I ask him if he had dueces and he says something like "Yes, it is easy fold against you. You wouldn't bluff here ever." To be honest, because of his timing he might have had something much weaker and folded. Even with the majority of posts going with check behind, I would argue, that shove here is the best play - we can represent every fullhouse while he almost can't have 55/66 and 22 only sometimes. And I almost can't better spot to be able to fold out flushes of his than on this Jc.

Thank you for your posts guys!
2/5 two pairs turned into a bluff Quote

      
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