Hero has been playing solid TAG. Nothing weird shown down. Not caught bluffing. Picking up some decent hands so should not perceived as nitty either.

V1 (BB, $1k) is the newest guy to table. Made quads earlier and has ran his stack up to $1k+. Low 30’s Asian guy with his girlfriend. Seems to be playing rather straight forward but pretty small sample size (~1hr). I do not know what his 3! range is.

V2 (BTN, $3k) loose fish ~70-80% vpip. Chases draws, will overvalue hands. Running super hot and keeps talking about how he loves to play his rush.






OTTH:

Hero opens KsKc to $20 in MP.
V2 flats. V1 3! to $80
Hero calls. V2 calls.


Flop (~$240) QdTd6h
V1 bets $140. Hero call. V2 call.

Turn ($760) 8h
V1 bets $350 (leaving ~$430 behind)
Hero?




Obviously open to discussions around pre-flop, but would like to hear rationale. Is turn a clear call? Jam > Call? Fold > Jam > Call? Jam > fold > call?



Value hands I lose to: AA, QQ, TT (12 combos- is that right?)
Hands I beat he realistically barrels on turn: AdKd, AQ (if he has that), KK (14 combos?)





Pros: Hand is under-repped; protects my flatting range pre-flop; villain can value bet worse hands post-flop; can keep V2 in the hand who is licensed to spew; I do not know what V1’s 3! range is and what his get it in range will be. It can very will be KK/AA exclusively.

Cons: V2 is likely to call behind me making me playing OOP to him post flop and have to play the hand 3-way; Let hands like AK/AQ/QQ/JJ see flops for “free”;

Flat pre is fine to keep the fish in.

I get it in here although it's incredibly close.

What is your stack size here?

I'd get it in here on the Turn. fish might still call with a wide range, and you have underrepresented your hand consistently throughout the hand so V1 not only probably has a wider 2 barrel range then yopu are currently giving him credit for (especially since he might have tried isoing the fish pre) he might call with worse.

Blah sorry. Can't edit but hero is also about ~$1k. I guess forum title says it.

Don't like the flat pre....overpairs are just awkward when we are multiway.....as we can see from this hand, we just don't know we're we are at, I 4bet this pre...
On the flop I kind of like a raise here, but I get that we are calling to keep our hand under-repped, or our range wide if villans think that way.
Turn, now it's time to gii, we can't fold, and with only a trivial call on the river left that we won't be able to fold for, may as well stick it in knowing if we are crushed we can spike a 2outer.

I strongly suspect we are beat here. A straightforward guy doesn't 3-bet lightly from the BB against a solid TAG's EP open.

I would weight his range heavily toward AA/QQ. AdKd possible but only one combo. AQ less likely.

@fatmanguitar note that i emphasized that V1 is the only new player on the table ~1 hour in. Nothing fishy in the 1 hour sample size. Do you prefer flat or 4! pre given stacksizes? 100bb deep I would 100% just 4!

I prob rip it in 2/3 of the time and fold 1/3, but if I was better at poker those numbers would be reversed. Hard to imagine he's doing this with much that we beat.

At 200bb I really prefer going for the 4b of like $210. But at 100bb or 300+bb, calling is much better

He could have AhKh too. With two black kings, we can't fold here. Especially if you think it is possible V1 3-bets KQss or AJss.

Realistically I don't think V1 is ever really bluffing because of V2 but I still think we have to continue. Maybe with red kings it's a fold.

If we do decide to continue, I say may as well jam.

There are not 14 combos of KK when we have KK, just fyi

Also, 4-bet pre.

@whorasaurus - can you explain why you are more likely to call 100bb deep vs. 200bb? i thought it was an easier 4! 100bb deep as we are more than happy to get GII pre-flop / on any non-Ace high flops like 10000% of the time. Whereas the deeper we get, the less value there is with overpairs. Like if we 4! To $200 and he 5! jam or 5! to any amount it quickly becomes a gross spot, even with KK, especially given minimal reads on him.

Maybe you are implying that we are happy to take it down pre-flop with our premium pocket pairs, than have to play bloated pots with overpairs when we are 200bb deep?


@ZockenRobot 12 of AQ, 1 of AdKd, 1 of KhKd? And I really don't know if he has light 3-bets... small sample size with V1 he might be trying to iso V2 but not sure if he is that competent/aggro. And also, I'm guessing red KK is a fold because it removes AdKd, a big potential bluff hand here?

4bet pre / fold vs certain villains.

I'm not at the table, but some people won't stack off with out AA.

As played i'm just folding - you have the best hand sometimes, but this board is terrible and we lose to too many hands. We also have V2 behind us and this is not a spot that is +EV.

Basically boils down to stack-to-pot ratios. 100bbs, I'm comfortable just calling knowing that the whale will come along - this gets us ~ 1.75 SPR which is great for stacking off. I'm stacking off on 98% of non-A flops and calling disguises our hand. 200bbs the SPR becomes much less favorable, and I generally prefer to 4b to adjust. this does reveal our hand strength but w/e. Calling is fine too with reads, especially heads up. Not wild about going multiway 200bbs deep though.

300+bb is interesting, both call and 4b have merit. It's possible you can't get the low SPR you want, so you may just elect to call. Position and reads really dictate this situation

I'm going to bump my thread because I'm still unsure of the play here.

If we should 4-bet, how much do we 4-bet too and why do we size it like that?

I'm also curious if we are 4!/folding or 4!/calling it off given stack sizes (Hero is also ~$1k effective) and relatively no information on villain.

I feel much more strongly now that 4! is way better especially given 3rd player who is likely to call. going 3-way OOP with KK is tough even with 3rd player being a huge fish. I feel much better flatting if we are heads-up since I have position.

And also still curious as to what others do as played. Not sure I "have" to call it off here even though my hand is underrepped. Feels like AA should check turn a fair amount, and certainly AQ (which is the only hand I can beat even IF he 3! and has it here), and obviously JJ should not be continuing. Hands that can continue are AA/QQ/TT/AdKd it seems. Not sure if that is MUBSy but just hard for villain to continue in huge 3! pots 3-way without having it.

With black kings I just jam it in. Just 4b this pre. He can be value betting worse and has some draws in his range. We're really only beaten by AA/QQ here, and I'm not sure if he chooses those sizings with them.

*grunch*

I don't mind flat pre given whale is still left to act (as a general concept). That being said, you should consider your relative position postflop. It's likely to get sandwiched into some ****ty spots, like the one you're in.

All that considered I would 4bet/call pre (4bet/fold is an option but not loving it). Flat isn't that bad though.

Flop is ok given pre.

Turn is bleh. Do we really expect V to bluff into you and a whale twice? Would he vbet AQ ott, and does he have all AQ combos pre? Probably not. I fold turn.

If you have any coins in your pocket, flip it. Heads you gii, tails you fold. You can 4bet pre, but really both pre and flop are fine.

You can 4bet IP anywhere between like $180 and $250 I'd say. The lower range is more likely to get action, the higher range is more likely to give you clarity about his range.

4bet $200 and stack off depending who the player is. There is nothing wrong with 4bet folding and only stacking off with AA. You will never get coolered and you get an image of being aggressive when you 4bet fold. It is not ideal, but i've been playing like that for a long time and have a pretty decent win rate.

If you are playing against a player like me, I would rarely stack off with out AA 200bb deep unless I knew villain well. Maybe I run bad but when ever I get 200bb deep with KK they always have AA.

100bb deep and my stack off range goes up immensely to JJ+ AKo+.

There is also merits to flatting like you did, but you ran into a dog **** situation.

This spot sucks so much that it's a pretty standard fold. You beat AQ and chop with the other KK. You lose to AA/QQ/TT and are relatively flipping with AdKd and AdJd.

thanks for responses.

yeah flatting, while underrepping our hand is troublesome because I have little range definition for him. I don't have a read on him (only been at our table < 1hr) and don't know his 3! squeeze range.

in retrospect I'm really ok with the flat pre if whale were not in the hand (or any other player) i.e. if I were to go heads up in a 3! pot in position. 3-way multiway in a 3! pot OOP is very tough.


I ended up folding. It felt like basically: lose to - AA/QQ/TT; I beat AQ (which we don't even know if he will 3!) and there is also AdKd.

Jam turn Ainec.

Hero's basically getting 2 to 1 on a jam (we don't expect V1 to fold often). However, V1 facing shove is probably letting go of his AK and even AQ sometimes, so we're probably getting a bit less than 2 to 1 in reality. V2 is usually going to fold when he's behind, though we expect him to get sticky sometimes with a Q. So he's probably mostly irrelevant overall, except we have more ways to lose. I think we'd want to have at least like 35-40% equity against V1's range, and I think it's very close. Although there's many more combos of AQ and AK (and random other hands like KQ or Axs with fd) than hands that beat us, if V1's thinking at all he's probably not double barreling without at least top pair into two players including the fish that often, and AQ/KQ is discounted bc preflop. I think it's almost even and very close, hence saying in my earlier response that we should just flip a coin.

@Redskins 47 how is it not even close? What reasonable range of hands do we beat that villain shows up with here vs. hands that we do not beat?

I don't disagree with a jam necessarily but still think this is a fold even given how underrepped we are, but I can't possibly see this being as an "ainec" situation

@pockzeroes - really the question is how many Q (AQ/KQ) does villain even show up with here? given my limited information. if we're at a table where a villain has been not too active, but also at the table for only <1 hour, do we expect this type of player to 3! from the bb with AQ? KQ? How often?

4 betting pre I would make it like 220ish....let him come back over the top if he wants, I'm never folding kk pre-flop, maybe that's wrong but against aa, its pretty much always going in on the flop anyway....unless villan makes a set.....but that's the only way in a 4/5bet pot you can get off kk, that's my view anyway.....
Kk vs aa is one of those things that just happens, we can't get mubsy about it,

It is close. If you're going to suggest jamming turn and that Ainec, how about saying it within the 4 days this thread is open and not after less than two hours OP posts results.

When we are ahead of all his bluffs, beat hands that he could be value betting worse with, are ahead of any spaz he might have pre, and have black Kings in a 3b pot with a pot with a small SPR where he never puts us on Kings, I'm never folding.