Hello, 2+2.

$2/$5 game. Casino in Michigan.

Villain that will be discussed in hand will be called "REG" from this point forward, she is a regular in this $2/$5 game, about 50 years old, most of the things I hear about her suggest that she is a definite action player, stack always fluctuating big.

My first time in this $2/$5 game, I am a complete unknown to everybody at the start of this session. I am 25 years old. I sat down with ~$425, the table was just opening. First pot I played, I raised from UTG and lost my stack on board of AQ8, 88 was shown to be winner, I mucked. Everybody at table immediately discussed, most had me on AxK, REG had be on AQ but then later changed her mind to AxK just as the others.

4 hours of play before hand in question. Most of players were same throughout, including REG. I have been playing pretty standard TAG, haven't had to show many hands at all. Hands I have raised preflop with and shown down are AK, KK, maybe a few others, but I have been raising standard TAG-raising hands preflop. Since my first hand, I haven't been involved in any unusually large pots. I have only 3-bet once preflop, it was about 5 minutes before hand of interest, I 3-bet button, got 4-bet with KK and called with AA and won the pot.

Hand of interest:

V1 ($~450)
REG ($~450)
Hero (~$575)

V1, new to table, complete unknown, appears to be absolute fishcake, raises to $15 from MP.

REG 3-bets to $45 from CO. She has not been very aggro preflop, a lot of limp-calling. This might only be her 2nd 3-bet. Only other time I remember, she 3-bet jammed with like $125 out of BB in a family pot and didn't have to show.

Hero in SB with KK.

Hero?

Point of this post is to make sure none of us have some kind of unknown leak here, including myself.

Please be specific with 4-bet sizing if your choice is 4-bet. Please be specific with post-flop plan.

After I get some good responses, I will post flop.

Thank you all.

if i thought the other villain would fold, id flat. with him in the picture, 4betting to 120/call. if she flats im continuation betting most flops.

4bet 150, and shove most/all flops.

You probably have a pretty nitty image. If villain is decent enough to notice this flat and try to rep AK/10s/Js, if she is crap just 4 bet to 120 and call a shove.

Meh 4 betting looks very strong

Flat b/c most flops. B/r b/c most turns. B/c c/c most rivers.

This is all speculative pending the flop turn and river cards reads etc.

So lets stick to pre. I like a flat for hopefully 3 more streeets of value

this

lol @ flatting, did you guys read "most of the things I hear about her suggest that she is a definite action player, stack always fluctuating big."

that pretty much means lets 4bet and hope she wants to see a flop...


Flatting here should be done against SMART villains who will not give you any action on your 4bet without KK+ and are thinking. Thus by flatting you can have a wider perceived range which will get smart players to give you value post. against this villain i am shoveling money in as fast as possible (lol @ 3 streets thing...)

well done masa

So we HOPE she goes bizerk pre instead of knowing she's spewing

off the next three streets

Ok, I've gotten a couple responses from posters that I generally respect and look for.

So we 4-bet to $150, V1 folds, REG flats.

Updated stack sizes:
REG: ~300
Hero: ~425

Pot: ~$325

Flop: QJ3

Hero?

I think it is clear, and probably not even worth mentioning, that there is no room for a b/f line here with a stack/pot of ~1.

If there is any flop that makes us think about ditching our hand, this is probably it. But, again, we're talking stack/pot of ~1, so we have > 2:1 on our monies even if we checked and faced a jam.

Do we c/f here? AA/QQ/JJ now obv all ahead of us. I mean is this ever not just spew to jam here?

Thoughts, please.

Thank you for your replies up to this point

What is with people talking about "next three streets"? Did anybody catch that we're not playing effective stacks of 500BB???

Against this villain i would check/shove if she bets less than allin. She will bet all the hands she would call with plus might bet something like TT thinking hero has AK. Give her the rope. If she has top or middle set, so be it. She will call with KQ, AQ and all sorts of crap pre, so we cant be worried about a set.

Hypothetical sweetheart..
its what could happen.

Btw I'm not opposed to 4 betting if I'm sure I can get most of it pre to set up a flop shove....which is what you should do

But if I think ill get most of it on later streets that's what I do. Since when do you need 500bb??!?!

yeah a little more gross now, but and i guess check/shove is better than flat out shoving as you allow villain to have a wider stack off range.

yeah, in theory, effective stacks need to only be 4BB to get a full three streets of betting:

example: (heads up) - 4BB eff.
limped pot, then you can go minbet/call flop, minbet/call turn, and then you are set up nicely for a minbet-shove on the riv...

so no, you don't need 500BB, you are right! you understand the true fundamental concepts of the game.

.

Jam v described villain.

I suspect you are having a case of the dreaded result orientation.

This flop is pretty sucky for our hand but her range is simply still wide enough to make a shove +EV. As well as the obvious AK combos I think you'd see enough AQ, AJ KQ 10Jsooted spazzes to make shoving good. It is clearly quite thin.

EDIT If she is aggro c/r is obv better.

Yea and the sky's blue when the suns out....

Masa Im not opposed to 4betting

But what your implying is anything under 500bb needs to be set up for stack shoves on flops BC there's no chance of getting more value later on.

dude have you been to London?

their sky is like permanently white, they never have sun or blueness.

Yea and when the sky's grey its not blue

Hows that?

you're on to something. but anyway... I really think my example with the min-bet shove on riv was pretty sexy.

why flat here? By raising we give our opponents the opportunity to make an even bigger mistake with a hand that's drawing very thin. These players will call because most of them cannot lay down a hand if their life depended on it.

I only flat call three bets to set people up and make it more difficult to put me on a range against players who are pretty good players and who would immediately fold to a 4bet.

There are players I'd actually shove pre with KK if I knew they'd call me with a lower pair or a big ace. If they hit their ace or a set so be it I'm willing to get it in there. Players have called my all-in shoves with pairs as low as 7's because they often put you on A/K if you shove pre, thinking a good player would always just make a bait 4 bet or flat the 3b.

So you're implying that betting $100 on flop, turn, and river is optimal here?

And that doesn't seem weird at all to a non-******ed opponent?

Humerous at best

no, my optimal line was 4bet 150/shove flops. we were just having an argument on a whole different level.