OPEN SHOVE, OPEN SHOVE!

I agree with you for sure, only reason I think some of the time I bet/shove turn is that I've seen TONS of guys like this who play ATC call a bet "just to see if he's bluffing" and when they dont hit the perfect turn card they INSTAFOLD. He could call with small pp's, Ax, bottom pair, or random straight draws and if the turn isn't an A or the trips that he is looking for he could fold a decent percent of the time. I don't think many good players would fold, but guys like this don't have normal perception of pot odds/bet sizing (as mentioned in the reads) and a loud ALL-IN on the turn wakes a lot of donkeys up who suddenly think "ZOMG HE IS ALL-IN AND MUST HAVE ME BEAT - FOLD"

Shoving is better, but not by as much as I originally thought the more I remember the times I've seen people fold for a relatively small AI after putting in ~80% of the effective stack.

3b pre was pretty bad. Reread your own descriptions of villains and your ensuing comments about 3b and try to think about it. You say they never fold and never fold postflop with anything remotely connected to the flop. Why would they fold now? You think because you 3b big pre he's going to not want to commit post flop with hair marginal holdings yet he did last time you 3b on the dryest of boards. You are OOP. You raised nearly 25% of your stack already. You finally got to the left of these guys and now you're 3b them in the other spot where they have position on you. You described v1 as 90/20. 20 is wide but not as wide as you are thinking probably being confused with his 90 range and mixing them together. J10s is a great hand multiway why not call pre and play poker. Or fold pre and move on to the next hand. 100bb deep you cant pull stuff like this committing so much of your stack and now not knowing what to do with a 9 hi dry board. You should think ahead and plan what to do if they both call and if xxx comes on the flop. You can't think of every decision but it seems like you had no plan other than to 3b bluff OOP vs 2 stations with small SPR postflop. Your goal is to bust these fish when they sit Down. Yea you may force a little action but you still want the edge in your favor. And you may not always bust the big fish wen they sit down remember that too.

Vs 20% of hands we have 30% equity. Vs his entire range which i doubt he shows up with in a 3bet pot we have 43% equity. I like money those edges are not big enough.

Yep, nice point. I still believe the 20% raising frequency is accurate. I'm happy playing against an Ax here. But, on reflection, I am factoring in my perceived range and 3bet sizing. So, I was counting on some FE and that Villain wasn't merely Level 1. I guess, my thinking is that J10s actually plays well IF combined with the perception of a QQ+/AK hand.

Trying to level a fish at LLSNL isn't really a good plan. You end up leveling yourself.

I still think Check/Call optimal or Open shove are the optimal choices here.

Could you please explain in detail how Check/Call is optimal here? I fail to see it given the situation.

"guy bets 20 into 200 pot" example 1.

"Guy calls with odds less than 2-1 with a gutshot" example 2


Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not a reason to just check/call?

Or is everyone thinking a shove is optimal because he decided to donk 3-bet this guy OOP?

How is this optimal though since calling $20, which yes - gives us odds to hit, but means we never get any folds and lose all of our invested $ and equity when we don't hit our gutshot since all his betting hands are ahead of us if we brick out? Also, we've shown strength with our 3-bet and have $105 invested in the pot plus a bit of dead money from the caller. Do we really want to try and C/C down and then lose at showdown to A/K/Q high and 22?

You need him to fold all of his A high hands. Random lower pps. Like every single hand he has has decent equity against you right now. Even if he has undercards, he has 6 outs right now. You have to make all of that garbage fold or you're just giving away a ton of equity.

Why are we trying to bluff this whale? Why not just stack him, knowing we are ahead?

EXACTLY, all his T8, 86 and other random gutshot straight draws we are crushing and they CALL our bets WAY behind, most A/K/Q hi and small PP's which are beating us fold to our bets, and those that don't we are still in good shape against given our $ in the pot and SPR. All of this plus our repping a big hand and wanting to play on our terms, not his, in this pot tell me I can't CC EVER!

So because we invested 13bb we are going straight to ship it mode against a player who we have a huge edge over?


Call me passive, I check/call if small bet with odds, re-evaluate turn. I also if I fold, I snap auto top off my stack to 100bb and stack this guy when I know I am way ahead.

How often do you stack him here by C/Cing? Usually on this board when you C/C you won't hit turn so what would be the plan on the turn? or even river if/when it bricks? Let him win I suppose b/c a bluff on the river would be really bad with J high.

I think you should re-focus on the fact that this Villian called $150 with a gutshot rather than he bet $20 with a pair. We want him calling big bets with his hands we crush (and FOLDING hands that give him equity) instead of us calling his small bet when we are behind.

We are not calling a river with J high

You just need a gutshot turn or a flush draw turn to take this hand into more opportunities to stack him, knowing you are way ahead. Take advantage of this guy not bluff him. He is bad at bet sizing not bad at folding.

I agree there are better spots than this, but this is the spot we got into and we need to take the best line possible to win the most money, not HOPE to hit and then HOPE he stacks off when we do.

I am topping up after this hand if I lose, or going home if I feel I'm tilty - but that is hero dependant obviously.

I meant for my post to read that WE might try to bluff the river with J hi when we brick out, we are NEVER calling a river bet with J hi.

I still ask what our plan is when the turn (and then river) is a brick and no flush draw/pair/gutshot hits?

Depending on the guys sizing throughout the hand if we even get that far, but we fold.

OP do we have any further action on what actually happened in the hand?

It's not merely passive, it's nitty and a huge leak.

It's an interesting debate, primarily, in my view, about Fold Equity. The 3bet preflop was average, I admit. Being card dead for 4 hours against this whale probably contributed to this move. Also he was only raising 20%, so 99+/KQs was probably a better 3bet range, especially since this guy couldn't be levelled. And the postflop play indicates this:

I decide to open shove to maximize my fold equity. To be honest I believed V1 would balk at the bet size and with any J, 10, 8 or , I was in pretty good shape. But this is where player type IMO is such a LARGE factor in FE debates. V1 asks for a count, then after dealer days $340, Villain says I gotta call I've got AK. Not quite snap, but almost! Board runs out A on turn, K on river.

So, if my shove can't get him off two overs, is it worthwhile? I still believe my shove was the best option given my low SPR and 40%~ equity.

Yes, you would need an amazing read to not bet. He's still probably folding stuff like QJ, maybe KQ, smaller Axs, possibly small pairs. It's hard to say though. Some people way value overcards though and especially AK of course.

SOrry, but this is an absolutely awful 3bet...

What the hell are you thinking 3betting two fish playing like 80/10/0 who are never gonna fold. You'll be OOP with a a pretty weak hand, a drawing hand, and a bunch of times you'll miss. What do you do then... bluff them out? Forget it.. if they're calling with any gutter, etc.

Despite being OOP, I think in this game JTs is a perfectly fine CALL pre-flop. Its a hand that plays great in single raised pots when you're only 100bbs deep.

No. You've 3! once before and were called, then had to fold after the flop. Why would you expect this time to be different? Except now you're OOP, which is even worse?

These guys are super loose passive, why are you shoveling in money with a weak hand to try and get them to fold? Just call preflop.