My first orbit at the table. I recognize a few regs... all bad. Very loose/passive.

My first hand at the table, I am utg and get red KK, raise to $30, get called in 4 spots. Flop is A high and dry. I end up c/f to a bet and a call. Hand doesn't go to show down, but I feel its safe to assume I'm beat in at least 1 spot there.

On to the hand...

Hero has $500, the rest of the villains have between $300-$1000

Hero is on the button and dealt Kd Jd

The entire table limps, hero raises to $35 (bigger would have been better)
Hero is called in 5 spots (??!!)

Flop: $220, 6 players

K 6 6r

Checks to hero and....... ??

Getting called in 5 spots and getting checked to leaves me almost clueless as to all these villain's range.
Instinctively, I want to bet $100ish to get value from worse Kings, but at a table this loose and 6 ways to the flop its not entirely unlikely for AK, AQ to limp call... not to mention the likelihood of a 6 being in play.

I feel if we check behind we are put in an awkward spot on the turn a lot of times.

Just bet/fold.

We get called by worse and if we get raised by weak passives we know they have a 6. I would probably check turn if we get that far and play pot control just in case one of the loose passives did spike their 6 and they are slowplaying it or they have a better king.

Bet it, that is not even close. And yeah, raise more pre.

I bet here but small... like 60-100... people who call are either WB/WA and seems like the best way to charge w/o value towning yourself in these situations (i'd do the same w/ KK if any1 was saying its exploitable its just a way to play rainbow paired boards w/ Ks or As since theres basically no scare cards for your hand OTT and your WA/WB)

Sorry, I messed up in the OP...

I'm definitely betting. My question was meant to be about how much do we bet, what to do if raised, and plan for turn. My bad.

pot is 35x6 = 210, bet 95/fold the flop. I see weaker K's calling your cbet. id say check turn if checked to you and either call a river bet or go for value on the river if checked to you again.

Its okay to check here sometimes too since the money is likely to go in in two bets. And I don't see any reason to bet so small. I would usually be looking to get the money in and if they have a 6 then oh well. But live players in my experience tend to stack off with too many Kx hands here to not try to get stacks. A bit read dependent as to what line your opponents will view as weaker and whether checking the flop back will induce any turn bluffs.

Super easy fold if you are c/r live players are almost never bluffraising these kinds of boards.

Oh. I thought you had KQ, which is actually a lot different. Now I think I check back relatively often here and let everyone else either turn something stupid into a bluff or call me down if they turn a pair.

i like checking back here. It disguises your hand and it is not like we are losing out on a ton of value. I dont think we are getting peeled all that light in a 6 way pot. If we are, we aren't looking for 3 streets here anyways, so if we feel we are ahead on the turn (and also river), we can just bet/bet turn and river.

Lol at giving 5 people the free card. We have less then 50% equity against 5 ranom holdings on the flop, this is superbad.

Bet ~$120 fold/ship depending on who raises and for how much.

Bet/ getting it in here is lolawful against a large majority of villains.

B/f isn't terrible here against loose passive players since you're prob never getting checkraise bluffed. It sucks there's so many players because any of them could nail their pp on the turn if you check, and if they bet you're not gonna know where you stand and end up either calling down which is kinda gross, or possibly folding the best hand.

With fewer players I like checking and reeval on turn. Here, I think its a bet

Thanks for the replies.

I bet $100, everyone folded and I felt VERY fortunate.

why not bet something like $65? Encourage calls from hands that are 2 outers against you, save money when you're beat.

[QUOTE=agnostia;31669119]My first orbit at the table. I recognize a few regs... all bad. Very loose/passive.

My first hand at the table, I am utg and get red KK, raise to $30, get called in 4 spots. Flop is A high and dry. I end up c/f to a bet and a call. Hand doesn't go to show down, but I feel its safe to assume I'm beat in at least 1 spot there.

On to the hand...

Hero has $500, the rest of the villains have between $300-$1000

Hero is on the button and dealt Kd Jd

The entire table limps, hero raises to $35 (bigger would have been better)
Hero is called in 5 spots (??!!)

Flop: $220, 6 players

K 6 6r

Checks to hero and....... ??

Getting called in 5 spots and getting checked to leaves me almost clueless as to all these villain's range.
Instinctively, I want to bet $100ish to get value from worse Kings, but at a table this loose and 6 ways to the flop its not entirely unlikely for AK, AQ to limp call... not to mention the likelihood of a 6 being in play.

I feel if we check behind we are put in an awkward spot on the turn a lot of times[/QUOTE]

grunch

ive starting limping behind in these spots because of this situation, and with live poker ppl play bad post flop and ur pot is already going to be 50 bucks otf so you can bet however you want

as played im probably checking behind if it gets to me and it lead into obviously ill have to see how action goes. so lets just think of 5 players hand ranges as one, so we get value out of K8s+, K10o, and maybbee some sort of stubborn 2nd pair like 77-qq, and yes ive seen ppl l/c with hands that strong plenty of time im sure everyone else has too.

we value town ourselves vs 6x, KQ/AK. now lets think of scare cards on the turn that will make it "awkward." Ace is the only one i can think of that just absolutely scares me, obv anycard will give PP to catch up and boat up but we still have position. so i dont think were put in an awkward spot on the turn, i think its just as awkward otf, so technically yes itll be an awkward spot but its still just a bad spot to be in.

with all that being said its pretty tough for me in game to check back there, so im probably betting something in the range of 40-50 to get all the crap out of there and get value out of worse, at the same time any better hand will likely raise us and we can just fold. we still ahve absolute position so it makes things a little bit better.

so anyways i first said check, but after typing my in game plan i probably go with that more often and like it better.

There's no "right" number; I think the general concept is bet as little as possible that still ensures that random A-highs or 77-TT hands will fold, while not value-owning yourself against the person who shows up with a 6 or AK/KQ, and also isn't so small as to scream to everyone "hey look, I'm compeltely scared of this flop, feel free to raise me, I'll fold!", because everyone here points out, you're folding to a raise on the flop pretty much every time.

And it's great that hero bet and everyone folded, because turn/river could get really wierd if someone flatted. You actually end up in a WA/WB scenario even though it's certainly an unusual way to end up in such a position.


Side rant about OP's note that he had no clue as to villain's ranges: Just my opinion - if called on flop, there's still a decent amount of information to improve our read from "Any 6x and Any Kx". It's purely speculative based on trends amongst bad players at LLSNL, but I'd love to see someone take a glance and tell me what they think - also, I'd never guarantee such a guess based on overall trends, so it's not like I would suggest applying the range and stubborning insisting on it. This is live low-stakes poker; anything is possible and nothing surprises me anymore.







So - this is what I'm thinking - for the most part, if the 6 is out there, it's in the guys who were the last callers pre-flop - unless the first or second caller of the pre-flop raise are really donkalicious, they're not going to call $35 with 5 people behind from blinds/early position with a hand like 76s. So if you're only called from a blind or the first limper, almost definitely a K; if it's one of the later position guys, that's when I would be much more scared of the 6.

And typically, blinds are going to fold to $35 much more easily than the limpers, because so many LLSNL players won't fold once they've limped - it's some sort of phsychological fixiation of "I've already limped in with a hand I want to play, so I'm not going to let this guy take that away from me!", so I don't think the Blinds here are going to show up with weak Ks.

And AK can be eliminated from certain types of villains - certainly there are plenty of players who are going to limp/call with AK, but there are plenty who are fairly realible in that if it's unopened when it gets to them, they're going to open with AK. This doesn't help us for figuring out the blinds' chances of having AK since they didn't face an unopened pot, but for the other villains, as I said, most bad players either always limp with AK (and say something stupid like "I hate AK, it looks good but never wins") or always open pre-flop with AK; so IMO, it'd be fairly clear which of the non-blinds could have AK or not.

So the ranges for flatting the flop:
Blinds: K9-AK
Early Position, thinks AK is an overrated drawing hand: Kx
Early Position, thinks AK is da nuts since they're always shoving pre-flop with it on WSOP: KQ-K2
Late Position, thinks AK is overrated: Kx, 6x
Late Position, thinks AK is da nuts: KQ-K2, 6x

I can see canoodles' point about betting $65... but then again, $100 is still less than half pot. I feel like betting less is costing us value vs worse hands.

I know quite a few players that will test your btn c-bet often. That being said, I like the $100 range opposed to the lower range. It just makes the ck-raise/bluff more expensive for them, thus less likely.

Bet 40-50 get raised for 150ish: 150/300
but you bet 100, villain will think twice before bluffing $300: 300/350

No one is saying 40-50. That's inviting a raise, it's pratically demanding one from a player. The people who judge bets by pot-size will see it a a 1/4th pot size scared-as-all-hell bet, and the people who judge bets by absolute $ size will see a bet that's nowhere near double the pre-flop bet, which is approximately what they're use to.

The range appears to be somewhere from $65 to $100. The latter is aimed at making those who judge bets by pot-size to recognize you're at least 1/2 potting it, which at this point is substantial given stack sizes. The former is aimed at those who go by absolute $ amount - it's still double the pre-flop raise so to them, that's good enoug to show strength.

at these stacks i dont think betting 50ish is bad at all, would you attack that with air/2nd pair type hands with a billion ppl to act behind you and definite possibilities of 6x? i know i wouldnt, most ppl would go, man that looks fishy, oh well i have $35 invested see ya later

i think you are giving these players way too much credit.

I like a bet of $70 on the flop as its large enough to be respected and not played back at when cbetting into a sea of other people. Better hands will raise, worse will fold and weaker Kx will call (in general obviously). I would check back almost all turns though because not often can we get 3 streets let alone 2

Believe me I'm the LAST player to give these guys credit. Virtually every one of my theories and beliefs for LLSNL is based on the ideas that 99% of the players suck, and more importantly, they all have a specific way/style of sucking that they never deviate from, so as long as you can dumb yourself down to their level to better understand their ******ation, E-Z-Money.

Back to topic - so my point is there are a lot of donks who will see the small size and go "weak! weak! I'm good!" with their 99-JJ types, and since they're good, but they're NOT in Hellmuthian Trap Mode, they may raise because their understanding of "raise to protect if there are a lot of potential cards that could help villain on the turn" is grossly misapplied by them because they have no ability to fathom the concept of only being called by better. Paticularly if they're towards the end of the line of players still in the hand so there aren't many (or any) players behind him.

Heck, you know all those "I had to bet to see where I'm at?" plays you see ******ed 50+ year old grumpy nits make? Most often with 99-JJ on a one-over board? That's what a bet of 40-50 in this hand looks like to them. And if they too have 99-JJ, well then they'll tank and try to soul read you b/c in their warped donk mind, their TT is currently facing a WA/WB situation against JJ and 99 of ours, and of course the only play for them would be to respond with an equally bad sized raise to "see where I'm at".

Long story short - I'm not saying they'll raise the $40 or $50 because they're good players making a move. I'm saying they are donks; and when faced with a bet that seems suspicious to them, one such class of donks is going to do mental gymnastics to conclude that raising to end the hand is the right play.

Also, mostly irrelavant but not entirely so point about another danger of $40-$50 --> It may not be enough to get the crap hands out. $50 into a $210 may give a donk the idea that he's getting the right odds to try to spike an A, after all, $50 to win $260 is 5:1, and 3 outs on the flop is 12%, plus backdoor outs, plus he may be bluffing since it's such a small bet, my Ace may be good anyway...hold on I gotta do some soul-reading to figure out if my ace is good on its own, damnit I forgot what Hellmuth said about soul-reading, he's so good, it's too bad he gets so unlucky, just like I do against these super-aggressive young online punkz, always raising with junk, he's probably got junk here too!

Sure, if we knew the actual hand he'd be calling with, we'd love for AQ to call there, but since we're assuming the bet is only being flatted by Kx and 6x, it's not entirely irrelavant to point out that I've seen far stupider calls than $50 with $260 in the pot with AQ on a K66 board.

I think checking behind is ok. It'll be much easier to get some value on the turn. Someone will often have a 6 here, and I don't want to put a lot of the money in the pot to figure out if someone does. It's sometimes possible in a spot like this to make the correct fold on the turn without ever putting in another dollar.

It does suck, though, to bet when a 7 hits the turn and end up losing to 89 rivering a straight... So I'm most likely going to bet. Any hand that you are currently beating only has 2 or 3 outs against you so betting very small here is fine IMO. I'm probably making it $50-60.

Just read some of the other responses... Personally, I'm not judging my betsizing on what I think will "get respect". Especially when I have position! I'd love Ax to call my $50 bet here. They will only hit an A on the turn like 7 percent of the time (assuming no other aces are out), so in order for the flop call to be profitable, they need to be winning well over $500 when they do hit. If you don't pay em off, their call will never be profitable. And if it's not profitable for them, then surely it's profitable for you...

Supertanker ftw!!