So 2/5 has been pretty eventful so far. Got my ass kicked on Sunday night to the tune of -$1,500 due to some bad luck and unfortunate hands. Made about half of it back last night, but this hand stuck out.

OTTH,

Effective stacks: $1000 vs. V1, $500 vs. V2

V1 is a late-30's Middle Eastern looking guy. He is a 2/5 reg and chummy with another 2/5 reg at the table. Probably been at the table for an hour or two, but has been relatively quiet, not raising many hands. He is directly to Hero's right and has a "no chop" policy from the blinds. Two orbits ago it folded to him in the SB, he made it $25 I called with Q9s, flop Q67 he checks, I bet $50, he calls. Turn 9, he checks, I bet $125, he folds. His stack hasn't moved all that much.

V2 is a mid-20's Asian that just moved over to the table a few hands ago. No reads.

OTTH,

Folds around to V1 in MP
V1 opens to $25 (standard size for him)
Hero raises to $80 with K K
V2 cold calls $80 from the BB
V1 calls $80

Pot: ~$240

Flop: A 7 2

V2 checks
V1 checks
Hero checks

Is this an automatic check or automatic c-bet? I normally always check back A-high flops when I am the PF raiser and have a smaller pair (KK, QQ, JJ) as it seems like a WA/WB situation. With V2 cold-calling a 3! from the BB, I feel he has to be weighted towards big Aces and big PP's. V1 could also have an Ace here and is doing the standard "check to the aggressor" line. I really didn't know what to do here.

Turn: 9

V2 checks
V1 bets $145
Hero ?

How are you playing AK (or AQ if it's a 3bet) here? If you're only checking back whiffs and big PPs, and you're giving up all of those hands to a turn bet, then you're certainly vulnerable to being pushed off the best hand here by a thinking player. What is your preflop 3betting range in this spot?

Everything looks good. Now call.

Definitely don't bet the flop. You played it perfectly, which entails getting to the turn in position keeping the pot as small as possible. Call it "shortening the hand" or w/e. This is a textbook WA/WB situation, and this is exactly the outcome you wanted.

Please always call this turn bet. The point of the flop check is to assess turns, and multi-way, facing just one bet, in the best position, it's definitely a call. Call and play a river.

After V2 checks the turn, I expect him to fold almost always.

V1's bet doesn't automatically mean he has Ax. Your range in this spot should contain some Ax as well as QQ-KK type hands. The point of the flop check isn't so you can fold the turn; it's to keep the pot small and play the turn in position, definitely calling this kind of bet in this kind of situation (V2 obviously folding, V1 possibly wide).

What would be ideal is if we had a better sense of V1's raising range pre-flop. For example, if it was very tight, he might have a bunch of Ax hands that beat you and high pairs that aren't likely to bluff. I'm not getting that sense, and either way, you don't really have much of a read on V1. You've probably seen him play 25 hands. Essentially we are playing in a vacuum here, and it's a standard call.

My preflop 3! range here is AA-QQ, AK-AT, KQ-KJ and QJ.

My c-bet range on this board are all Ax hands and all unpaired hands that missed the flop.

I may have misapplied the concept, but I chose to treat KK as a "showdown value" hand here rather than turning it into a bluff because the odds seemed likely that someone would have an Ace.

However, when you really think about it, with me holding KK and an A on the board, there are only 6 combos of AK left and only 3 combos each of AQs and AJs so there really shouldn't be many Aces in villain's 3! continuing range. But this didn't dawn on me until after the hand.

You can definitely check back a flop this dry with some Ax with a goal of getting 2 streets. Not sure you want to target 3 streets / stack off for 200BB with one pair, and this is a fine spot to check flop with a hand even as strong as AT. Like with AT, if you do bet/bet/ship 200BB, you will find yourself up against AJ+ too often. So shortening the hand, targeting 2 streets, keeping your range wider and airier, etc., by checking flop with some Ax makes perfect sense. You may not have weak Ax in your 3-bet range pre, and that's fine, but I just read your above post... sure, with AK-AT, you should be checking flop with some of your Ax.

Unless you're also checking back some Ax, then you shouldbe Cbetting. You're in position. You can always check back the turn and have a much wider range.

^ Sorry, you are right ... I am probably checking back a decent portion of my Ax hands, especially AK. I didn't know if he meant in this specific hand or just in general, but yah, this is a very dry board so you can often afford to let V's peel a card to catch up or bluff at it.

Ha, see I probably WOULD c-bet AK. You can regularly get 3 streets vs. AQ, AJ, AT, etc. It's hands like AT, AJ that I might check back to avoid building a huge pot because it'll be tough to get 3 streets from worse. With AK, there are tons and tons of worse combos (could be like 2 dozen+ worse Ax), and on a board like this, really only 6 better ones, and probably 3-6 (22 is somewhat unlikely).

But really, c-betting this flop makes no sense. This is a textbook flop WA/WB spot, and it exemplifies everything about it. With a c-bet, you won't get value from worse, you won't get better to fold, you will build a large pot when every prudent strategy says to keep the pot small, etc. Do not c-bet to "avoid getting bluffed." That's a short sighted strategy. If after you check the flop, someone will bluff on the turn with nearly 0% equity vs. your KK, then great! Please don't stop them. On the turn in position multi-way, you'll also have a chance to assess action - if you have a bet AND a call in front of you on the turn, you have an easy fold and you don't lose a dime, etc. If it checks to you, you could consider a very thin value bet, especially if a turn draw comes in, etc.

You check this flop and play your position on the turn.

And tbh, you do by making what is basically a trivial call facing this turn action.

I fully agree with checking back this flop, and also doing so with most Ax hands. I might go ahead and bet AK though.

Now call turn.

Duh I'm dumb. you guys are both right, AK is an auto-bet due to getting called by worse whereas AJ/AT is a check/bet/assess line and AQ is kind of in the middle but likely check/bet/bet or bet/bet/bet.

Mind is a little foggy this morning, only got 2.5 hours of sleep after last night's session

I'd fold OTT. Calling also seems fine 200bb deep. Depends on your history with the guy. WP, crappy flop.

The thing about calling OTT V this villain tghough is giving money away as he is very unlikelly to check OTR his bluffs but more likelly to double barel, or check back/call his weak aces. I dont think calling OTT to evaluate river here is good?

For the call turn crowd, if we call the turn, are we committed to calling the river? Call turn/fold river seems bad. The pot will be $540 heading into the river. Let's say the river is a brick - we are looking at a $250 to $300 bet most likely (if he chooses to continue his bluff or value bet).

I guess a river decision comes down to reads. How likely is V to fire a 2nd barrel without an Ace here? And can he realistically fire that 2nd bluff after Hero 3! pre, checked the flop and called the turn? We very easily could have AA or AK on a flop this dry hoping exactly for this to happen - V getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

The more I think about it, the more I think it would be VERY hard for V to bet the river short of hitting a set. Maybe he could employ some wizard tricks and overbet the river putting max pressure on our AK-AQ, but that's pretty ballsy.

The problem here is that every hand you check back on the flop, you are planning on folding to a significant turn bet. I agree with you that cbetting a hand as good as KK here is kind of a waste, because you are unlikely to see many calls from worse, but that implies that you need to be checking some better hands that will protect your range. The best hands to do this with would be aces that are only good for two streets of value. That way, you don't lose the chance to get a big river bet (you didn't want one anyways), but you're not vulnerable to being forced out of the pot, even if villain decides to fire two bullets. Then you can check back your big pairs and plan to get one bet in on the river with them, and have a good chance of getting called by worse. (Note of course that you still need to bet enough aces on the flop to balance your bluff cbets.) (Also are you really 3betting KJo and QJo? If so, you're probably going to be better served by folding those and 3betting some suited aces or connectors.)

Thanks for re-explaining the protection concept (and Willy and spike). I remember reading this in Miller's SSNLHE book but it's been awhile and the concept was kind of lost on me.

Regarding 3betting, in this specific scenario, no I would not 3! KJo or QJo, I was just saying those are in my 3! range. Since there is no dead money to target, my 3! range in this scenario is entirely value, like AA-QQ and AK.

I use hands like KQ, KJ, QJ and AT for 3! when there is a raise from a light-ish opener followed by 2-4 callers since those hands are garbage to call with but the blocking factor plus passive calls generally precludes anyone from having a big hand.

General plan is to call the turn and evaluate river based both on V2's turn action and the river card/bet sizing. If V2 calls turn, I'm done with the hand unimproved.

This, especially if villains know you'll check back Ax OTF occasionally.

flop is always a check (i'd check behind Ax sometimes)

turn always call

river is your only real decision (player, read, and sizing dependent)

I don't think V is betting turn to shut down on river if he's putting you on KK-JJ with the flop check back. It's also less likely he's bluffing into 2 players in a 3bet pot on an A high board and in a spot where the 3bettor could have easily checked back Ax with the board so dry. His sizing also seems standard-like and I think if he was bluffing he would have a plan for how he wants to manipulate your range through sizing, like either bet small on turn and large on river or bet large now to get KK-JJ to fold. For all of those reasons I think turn is a fold.

If we call turn to evaluate river it should be with the expectation to call reasonable bets much of the time OTR . I don't expect the oop player to chk river often. Being oop he has the "problem" of "if I check now I might get bluffed off my hand" (unlike in posn where he can chk back). So I expect him to bet Ax and worse pairs that he thought were good otf as well as some bluffs. Further there are almost no chilling cards that can fall OTR to cool the action.

We chkd flop to keep worse in and now we call turn a lot of the time and follow through with calling river. My decision would be based on lol live reads and pot odds.

My main point is that if we are calling to evaluate thinking we get a free showdown a lot I wouldn't.

Lots of really good stuff on here from a first read, but I'm definitely gonna need another time or two to process everything.

I was wondering, a lot of times in a spot like this (ace high dry flop w betting lead) I take a b/b/b line vs callers,(saw it on a deuces cracked video at one point) being careful to leave myself decent sized turn and river barrels.

I normally would favor doing it especially w KK w my logic being that I'm blocking AK and can rep credibly here. I also figure that most players are soft and regular enough in the (200nl) games that I play that I'll have a pretty good idea who is going to just be way too sticky for me to get the play through profitably. It seems like this has worked pretty well in the past.


So I guess my question is, is this play (b/b/b) just not the type of thing I should be doing often, or is it more that KK specifically is not the hand to be doing it w in this spot? Does anyone take one line sometimes and the other a different higher % in this spot, or maybe just HU as opposed to 3ways?

Thanks for any help, and sorry if I'm just missing some key points here and the question has already been answered.

Holy Spew Batman!

Thanks for the advice everyone, I misplayed it. Is there any merit to clicking it back for a min-raise if we don't feel comfortable having to call off a river bluff? If he calls min-raise and bets, easy fold. If he folds, great outcome for us, and if he raises us, easy fold once again. I don't see him 3! bluffing the turn OOP after we min-raise.

Edit:* I can see min-raising being wrong because we lose the bet either way if behind and don't give him the chance to bluff it on the river (though we do get to choose the sizing, which is likely smaller than the river bet we may face). Seems like a risk management question.

Results

I disagree, our range here looks as much like KK or QQ as it does AA. If the villain bluffs the turn he can absolutely never give up on the river. So I think calling the turn is committing to call the river. He either has a value hand or is bluffing but you can't call turn and put him on a bluff just to fold every river when he continues. I think 100% of his checking range on the river are semi weak aces that beat us.

I would fold this turn as it's really hard for him to be semi-bluffing.
You don't need to call down here.

He didn't need to semi-bluff it was a stone cold bluff. He probably determined it was more likely that I was afraid of the A rather than slow playing a monster like AA or something.