Hero ($1200): Late 20's reg, probably seen as aggro, raising a lot of hands pre while table was short-handed, showed the Iceman an 8 after I 3b him earlier (believe it or not, I did NOT get froze, he just folded). Showed a 5 after raising to $30 on button over a limp. Only decent sized pot so far was when I raised AA to $30 over a limp, the limper called and then c/c three streets for $50/$110/$175 on Q78T5 and mucked.

V ($1000-1200ish, hard to tell with how his chips were stacked): Late 20's/early 30's, seems decent but not a reg/wouldn't consider him someone to stay out of pots with. He bought in for $400, only hand I've seen him raise pre was when he 3b AA and then bet flop/shoved turn with red aces on Q985, got called, and won on 5 river. Couple other small/medium pots but didn't show down hands on those that I saw.

Hero dealt 57

Hero is in BB, V is on button. Four players limp, hero checks option.

Flop ($25): 23Q

SB checks, hero bets $15, folds to V who raises to $50, folds back to hero. Action, and why?

Call and reevaluate turn. I would want to keep in all As hand. Betting all non spade cards. If another spades comes I probably just fold.

Im calling him and reevaluate turn. Raising here doesnt accomplish much apart from turning our hand into a bluff. VS a complete spazz there might be some merit to raising here, but vs a decent vilain I wouldnt want to blot the pot 200bb deep OOP with a marginal flush. His range will include ALOT of flushes for limping the button behind a few limpers. He has all the Kxs, Jxs, Axs etc. For these reasons I am not super excited about our hand atm.

I think V may be putting you on a a draw with your fairly low bet. He could easily have TPTK and wants to prevent you from sucking out on your draw. I am probably check calling this down at this point, although I think a larger bet on the flop (at least $25) would make sense. He would respect the bet more and be unlikely to pop you and may even fold. If he is on TPTK or the like, congratulate yourself for inducing the larger bluff, but I hate to end up with a huge pot with that hand.

I like check/calling the turn and leading the river if he checks back the turn. Limit yourself from getting blown off your hand while maximizing value vs. top pair.

Deleted.

I think in general it's hard to realize whatever equity your hand has by barreling out of position.

I prefer check/call all three streets.

I strongly disagree with those that say you should bet large on the flop. All that accomplishes is making your Villain's check-raises more profitable for him.

As played, if you're not folding, I think check/calling turn/river is still the best option.

Unfortunately a small flush, this deep, out-of-position, is just a bluff-catcher. If you want to bluff-catch check/calling is the way to do it.

I would probably lead for pot on the flop if the limpers are loose and likely to pay us off with Qx. As played, I think our options are between calling and folding. 3-betting flop is spew this deep. Most likely calling here and then checking turn. Can probably find a river fold if he bets turn and then barrels river.

You're still checking the river even if the turn checks through? Seems MUBSY to think we're up against another flush just due to a small flop raise.

Mostly agree. Though always calling and never folding flop, don't consider folding an option.

Checking and calling non-spade turns. Obviously lead river if V checks turn back.

Not sure I would check/fold river on a spade-less run-out, but let's see action.

The issue is that since we could already be drawing dead we'd have to fold to a shove/raise. In general though I was assuming the turn was going to get bet.

If you look at all the hands that people post to LLSNL, most of them are losing hands, and most of them are people building big pots through their own aggression without knowing where they are. Oddly enough most of them aren't people making bad calls. People are actually folding too often.

I will tell you, I don't know where we are in this hand. Not knowing where we are, doesn't make me want to build a huge pot. On the river specifically, there are no draws to get value from, and it's not obvious what weaker hands are calling. If 10% of the time someone else has a better flush that doesn't mean betting is correct. It could be that all worse hands are folding if we bet. And it could be that worse hands are betting.

As far as "small" goes. The pot was 25 on the flop. It'll be 125 on the turn. At that rate of growth we're building a big pot with a hand that's not very disguised, and not that strong.

just looked up pics of the iceman, im guessing he keeps a rosco on him? "u got a gun whats the point u aint wearin it" - jones!

call.

lead for 110 on all non-spades and non-queens.

you are pretty much turning your hand face up as a flopped low card flush, but he is either going to just call if he has a bigger flush, call if he has a set, or fold.

Raise to 200 for value. Bet 300 on the turn. Jam the river assuming no spade. If the board pairs dont jam the river instead bet fold a reasonable amount

Call raise on the flop, check the turn. If he bets, call non spades. Check river, if he bets, call non spades. If board runs out spades, get your soul read goggles out an from your brief history with him, try to figure out if he has any bluffs.

Lets not try to turn a relative strength marginal hand (based on our information) OOP into stack play at 200BB. I don't know about yall, but going to the felt in an unraised pot at 200BB feels pretty ****ty.

If turn goes check/check, river can be a bet or a check. As a standard with no reads, i'm betting nearly full pot on the river. But thats not to say I won't check/raise or check/call in this spot with a bit o history on how bad he is at bluffing or how much he overvalues hands.

edit: could have saved time by just copy and pasting au4all's posts.

Call and reevaluate on the turn.

Are you folding if he raises turn again? Or do we think he only raises turn with the nuts? I think even second nuts just flats turn most of the time.

What is V going to call with if we raise to $200 on flop? We should want to keep his Asx and KsQx type hands in. How are we b/f river for a reasonable amount after we already put in half of stacks on flop and turn if the action goes $200 flop/$300 turn and he calls both?


Continuing the hand as played....

Hero dealt 57

Hero is in BB, V is on button. Four players limp, hero checks option.

Flop ($25): 23Q

SB checks, hero bets $15, folds to V who raises to $50, folds back to hero. Hero calls.

Turn ($125): K

Hero checks, V bets $85. Hero? Should we be leading turn here and folding to another raise?

Lots of MUBSY poasts in this thread so far. Flush on an unpaired board just a bluffcatcher and that kind of nonsense, wtf.

Yes, we are not thrilled about stacking off deepstacked in an unraised pot with a 7 high flush, but our hand is still pretty strong- also against reasonable continueranges on this board. Instaput our villain on a bigger flopped flush just because he is raising on the flop is extremely MUBSy.

Wj, i am just calling this turnbet and hoping for a non spade and no pairing the board on the river. If villain decided to bomb the river with a huge bet regardless of that we get a big decision. Any reasonable riverbet i am probably calling unless the board gets worse for us aka more spades or pairing the board.

Are you c/c all brick rivers or b/f on total bricks? V will probably check back all of the hands we beat on river that didn't get there, maybe he makes a smaller bet with a set.

What would be your label for people who think good poker is calling and hoping?

When you check-raise a flop like this, and then start barreling what's your value-betting range? Don't include any unmade hands like AsX because you've make fun of those who say we're bluff-catching.

What's our equity against your range? It's always so weird when people are so sure, but present no reasoning besides hope for their actions.

I am check-calling the river also in most of these kind of spots when deepstacked. Couple of reasons for that:

1) I am trying to avoid a stackoff here in a limped pot with a small flush. Its a two edged sword, because we want max value from our hand and at the same time cut our losses when we are drawing dead to a bigger flush. I am not saying we have to stackoff of course if we do lead the river, but you see my point.

2) If villain is on a lonely big spade like K or A he very may well bluff the river in position against us. Many villains feels compelled to bluff when they end empty handed up at the river, especially when they have position and facing a villain that have checked into them on all streets. Id much rather keep this pot manageable and check-call a reasonable riverbet, instead of leading out with a big bet and then open up the road for villain to bluffraise us huge and very possibly gets us to fold the winning hand.

Go and troll somewhere else. Cut out a single sentence from a longer post to make easy oneliners is beyond the level of what i want to use my time on.

I think if V is any good he will realize that when he holds Ks/As that my range should be heavily weighted towards flopped flushes and sets, and barreling a brick river is almost always going to get called.

Pretty clear you know you're wrong. Using your time to think about someone's range is way beneath you.

You cut out one word from my post.

By the way just above my post the OP is saying the Villain is bluffing which would make our hand a bluff-catcher would it not?

Flopped flushes he certainly should expect to get called by if he decided to bluff fire the river, but two pair and sets is having a hard time if facing a third barrell on the river i think.

Anyway thats my two cents. Check-calling twice and then suddenly bombing out on the river is also a pretty strong line, so i am not really sure how light calls a potenial riverbet is gonna get on this board.