If she can even raise/fold an overpair (does she ever limp/call with that or play it like that) or 7x then I like the raise, otherwise if it's your two pair/set/combo draw raising range then just flat and take a look at your pot odds on the turn.

Results



Not that the results matter, but does knowing that's how wide V can be change the way you would approach the hand/take the line I took?

Unicorn.

However wide she's playing is irrelevant OTT and OTR. She's not continuing (ETA: against a cbet) without something that hits the flop. So just because he had 52o this time, doesn't mean we should play the hand different.

However, to think that she's folding 2p or a set when the flush hits is meh. Slow down, draw and GII once you hit.

Are you advocating 3bet/folding? Seems pretty horrific.

You are forgetting that you are heads up.

If in a multi way pot, you can Cbet because the odds that someone has a hand they'll call with are higher.

But this spot, when HU, you want to give your V a chance to think they might be good with their strong-but-wiffed hands.

The vast majority of time, V missed everything on this kind of texture. So cbetting while having a high likelihood of taking the pot now (which is certian a good result), is not the most profitable line.

There are the cards that give V a turned or rivered pair or set that will pay you off. There are the weak FD's that don't call a cbet. There are the Kx and Ax hands that can catch up to the 2nd best hand.

When you fast play, you always get your $$$ in behind V's strong (ETA: parts of range) hands, which will likely pay you off later anyway.

Simply put, HU, you can afford to wait until you bink, before getting your stack in.

(And you're not that deep. 140bb is not tough to get stacks in on two streets.)

Flushdraws that dont call a C-bet?Wich planet are your games running at Lapi?

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Hope this doesn't spoil the spoiler but lock the doors and keep the villain at the table at all costs.

So before the big argument of "should we 3bet or not" this is what I posted,

I'm firing back, we are ahead of her range that isn't exactly sets. Raise to 210. We get great FE vs hands we are flipping with like 7X combos, pocket pairs, combo draws or weird other hands she is playing like 34 or 68.

We can credibly rep aces here, I don't see her 5betting us without a set. I feel pretty comfortable folding is she 5 bets us back, as I doubt our A or K outs are good anymore. If she folds, great, if she calls, I think all spades and AK are live outs, re-evaluate on turn.



Not to toot my own horn but I do think this line was optimal, as I think we can both fold out hands with a lot of equity, and get worse to call us. There was no hand that was close that was 5 bet shoving us, just absurd bluffs that don't seem realistic and hands that peeled A or K are bad against (I said set, but two pair is basically the same hand). She did have the absolute top of her range here with two pair/set, and folding to the 5 bet would have let us get away cheaper.

So against villain's exact hand, the best flop play is to 4-bet/fold?

Yeah I think 3-bet fold is pretty optimal here, clearly. You want to just call and then guess on a turn card? What happens when a K or A hits and she leads out? What about when it doesn't hit? What sort of turns should we be turning into bluffs?

Sucks when we get 4bet on the flop and have to fold, but like I said, we can feel comfortable folding after we rep an overpair and get shoved on.

Right, I meant 3-bet.

OK. What's your 3-bet sizing when you 3-bet/fold?

I said 210 originally, although it occurs to me that's at least a 10 dollar spew since 200 accomplishes the same goal for less. I would want to go at least slightly above minraise.

Do you see I'm just making the point that it's massive spew to 3-bet/fold here?

Do you realize you have the nut flush draw? Have you looked at equity and pot odds?

Even against villain's exact hand, you cannot 3-bet and then fold.

Uh, looks to me like we are getting less than 2:1 and most definitely can fold to a 4 bet shove. We have what, ~35 percent equity under the best or circumstances? Why are we forced to call with the NFD here exactly?

You need to assume villain is never bluffing a worse draw to fold. Nothing lets us make that assumption confidently. The right line against two pair plus is obviously to call. You're mostly 3betting to clear out hands that can never make it to showdown or that will win us stacks if they hit or that she may not be raising with at all (most one pair hands). Calling was definitely the right play here.

That seems a bit results oriented to me, since it is much better vs the top of Vs range, which we ran into here, but seems much worse vs the vast majority of Vs range we were likely to be up against, assuming a reasonable c/r range.

I was strongly in favor of just calling prior to knowing the results. My big problem is that people are assuming a completely unreasonable check raising range that includes lots of one pair hands. A reasonable range consists of strong hands that will shove and bluffs. Against the strong hands we want to draw, and against the weak hands we should be happy floating. Hell, even against one pair hands, I'm happy floating with $500 behind and position. Raise/fold and, to a lesser extent, raise/call, are very unbalanced lines (what are we value 3betting here?) that exploit tendencies we don't have any evidence of the villain showing.

Johnny, yes, the result doesn't necessarily matter, but in this case t just affirms that call flop and shove turn is going to be the best line by far. You already knew that she can be wide - see the first quote above where she's bluffing with 87o. You probably didn't expect something as weak as 52o, but you must have known she can have a ton of different hands here.

Honestly man, 3-bet/folding vs. the c/r is the worst spew I can imagine.

I really can't say anything more about it.

3bet fold on flop?.. In what sick world are you guyz playing???????????

Flats and bet/raise turn

Flat and probably shoving every turn card unless we bink.

Also you pretty much have the nuts here vs this V so raising to GII is pretty good since you rep so little and she knows that you know she also reps so little. Aslong as you don't fold you can't go wrong with any line here BUT letting her spew is the most profitable.

Like flatting, she would likely barrel off on a spade and by raising we could get blown off our equity (even against a set) when she jams. Plus what are we repping by 3betting the flop? I think we can credibly rep AA and KK when we just flat here and take it away later when she shows weakness.

3-bet/fold is lighting money on fire. Hero has a ton of pot equity and with the board the way it is, much less fold equity.

I am wondering if any of the info you included about you being card dead and V reacting to your play seemingly different from others might help with our ranges here. You seem to suggest she is lost on how to attack you, then suggest in this hand that she attacks you like she attacks all others.

You suggest she believes she can read her opponents. "she is better than the field".
Can we assume she has not adapted to your current image?
What might that current image be in her mind?
If you can suggest your current image in her mind, does her action on this flop reduce the number of weaker hands or increase it or would she even be affected by it?


Good Luck

Just read the results. The above questions obviously do not apply to this particular V but may have value in other spots.

I like 3! the flop, to a much more committing size, to like 350. The times we run into a set is more than made up for the times that she
1) Ships a dominated flush draw or flush/gutshot
2) Folds her $110 with hands that were actually flipping us (pairs)
3) Calls with a hand and folds the turn
4) She tilt calls with or ships with a straight draw
5) Meta game, thinks you are on a draw later, when you really flopped a set.

Give her an opportunity to make a mistake on the flop. Just because she has a hand this time doesn't mean someone who limps 52o UTG isn't going to be making tons of mistakes in hands.