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2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP 2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP

11-25-2011 , 12:30 AM
Hero has been fairly card dead and hasn´t been successful in any pot and quickly down 250 on unsuccessfull cbets.

Villian has been very aggro in position with his raises and has shown down some light opens.

MP limps $5
Villian(1000) CO raises $20
Hero(460) SB KQ raises $60
BB folds
MP folds
Villian asks how much I`m playing and calls $40

Flop QT9
Hero bets $80
Villian instashoves $320 to call

Hero????
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 12:45 AM
Why did you bet the flop?

Not sure I like your preflop 3 bet. If you going to do this OOP for value because you think villain is wide AND will call you wide, make it $80-$90. If he is aggro, nothing wrong with calling KQ and letting him cbet K-, Q- high boards, while making an occasional play on textures that probably missed you both.

As played, I am not happy but it's closer to a fold unless you think he is a maniac. I get that he can have JJ or even 99 or T9 here, but his overall range is strong and you likely have less than the ~ 35% equity that you need to call.

I would have checked this flop. Plan would be to c/c flop, c/ship turn. With aggro villains you want to induce when you are committed, as this gets the money in against a wider range than betting.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 02:11 AM
Entire hand is a trainwreck, starting with the lame and small 3bet out of position.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 09:35 AM
KQo is just a brainless preflop raise, to be honest. Not even the kind of hand that is likely to stack a deep-stacked opponent. Why would you tie your own noose like this? SOmetimes discretion is the better part of valor. You said yourself that you are down 250ish due to failed c-bets. Sounds like you need to take your foot off that gas peddle a bit. If Villain is betting lightly then calling lightly is fine here with this hand. I don't mind seeing a flop with KQ against this type of opponent and let HIM hang himself.

You have to call 320 into a 550ish pot... Your inside draw and top pair doesn't change the fact that this is a vomit-fold because the whole hand screams spew. You got outplayed.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 09:59 AM
Some pretty bad advice above.

3bet is fine pf. You know he's opening light. The only negative is you've got a bad image at the moment.

Flop is an easy call with the read. You need 32% equity. You'll be facing a draw a lot of the time. Even if he has a set 50% of the time and a draw 50% of the time, you've got enough equity to call.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewLiveFish
Some pretty bad advice above.

3bet is fine pf. You know he's opening light. The only negative is you've got a bad image at the moment.

Flop is an easy call with the read. You need 32% equity. You'll be facing a draw a lot of the time. Even if he has a set 50% of the time and a draw 50% of the time, you've got enough equity to call.
Gonna have to mostly agree with this.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 01:47 PM
KQ is included in the group know as "trouble hands." The above hand shows why. Against a tight preflop raiser, I would fold it OOP. I would fold KQo in position against super tight villains. Against this villain, a call from OOP would have been appropriate.

On the flop, villain is repping AQ...very convincingly. It is consistent with his preflop play. There is no reason for him not to think you have AQ or queens or a bigger PP.

I agree with Setsy that you want to c/c OTF and c/r OTT against this villain. He will go all in with with a wide range against you if you show weakness.

As played, his range is not wide. He has TPTK+ or air. The % chance of air is not high enough to justify a call. Just fold it and reexamine your preflop strategy.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_goldman
KQ is included in the group know as "trouble hands." The above hand shows why. Against a tight preflop raiser, I would fold it OOP. I would fold KQo in position against super tight villains. Against this villain, a call from OOP would have been appropriate.

On the flop, villain is repping AQ...very convincingly. It is consistent with his preflop play. There is no reason for him not to think you have AQ or queens or a bigger PP.

I agree with Setsy that you want to c/c OTF and c/r OTT against this villain. He will go all in with with a wide range against you if you show weakness.

As played, his range is not wide. He has TPTK+ or air. The % chance of air is not high enough to justify a call. Just fold it and reexamine your preflop strategy.
Is this a level?
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_goldman
KQ is included in the group know as "trouble hands." The above hand shows why. Against a tight preflop raiser, I would fold it OOP. I would fold KQo in position against super tight villains. Against this villain, a call from OOP would have been appropriate.

On the flop, villain is repping AQ...very convincingly. It is consistent with his preflop play. There is no reason for him not to think you have AQ or queens or a bigger PP.

I agree with Setsy that you want to c/c OTF and c/r OTT against this villain. He will go all in with with a wide range against you if you show weakness.

As played, his range is not wide. He has TPTK+ or air. The % chance of air is not high enough to justify a call. Just fold it and reexamine your preflop strategy.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAATHA F
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 03:13 PM
I can´t say I agree with a lot of the players saying to not 3bet. This is a line I take with a hand like KQo against aggro players that I fell pretty comfortable with. Its a 3bet for value that I can win a large % of the time pre-flop or with a flop cbet.

I don´t like to flat this hand and have the BB and the limper come in behind me and I have to play this hand OOP against 3 opponents. Villians CO iso range is literally 35-40% opens. If i had a hand with more post-flop value say KQs I could understand flatting since I could hit a stronger flop. Obviously this flop isn´t ideal for 1 pair but the question is more should I fold this or am I getting the right price against his value hands as well as possible AJ, JJ, QJ, JT hands that I beat and have pretty dominated with KQ. Or is this a fold...

Sizing wise I don´t think there is much difference between $60 or $80 given stack sizes. I appreciate the advice but I feel like there might be some people that don´t take lines like these very often and don´t see the benefit of 3betting light with a hand that has good post flop value, like KQo, AJo, ATo, small pocket pairs etc...
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 03:16 PM
If he has seen you cbet/fold several times, your hand is under repped. That kinda forces you to call.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlep
I can´t say I agree with a lot of the players saying to not 3bet. This is a line I take with a hand like KQo against aggro players that I fell pretty comfortable with. Its a 3bet for value that I can win a large % of the time pre-flop or with a flop cbet.

I don´t like to flat this hand and have the BB and the limper come in behind me and I have to play this hand OOP against 3 opponents. Villians CO iso range is literally 35-40% opens. If i had a hand with more post-flop value say KQs I could understand flatting since I could hit a stronger flop. Obviously this flop isn´t ideal for 1 pair but the question is more should I fold this or am I getting the right price against his value hands as well as possible AJ, JJ, QJ, JT hands that I beat and have pretty dominated with KQ. Or is this a fold...

Sizing wise I don´t think there is much difference between $60 or $80 given stack sizes. I appreciate the advice but I feel like there might be some people that don´t take lines like these very often and don´t see the benefit of 3betting light with a hand that has good post flop value, like KQo, AJo, ATo, small pocket pairs etc...
Can you please walk us through why you bet the flop and what was your plan when you did?

My guess is that in answering that question, if you had a well thought out plan, you will have the answer to what you think his range is now that he raised and what to do. I am away from stove, but why don't you post some stove output based on what you think his likely range is and what your equity is so that we can discuss?
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 04:33 PM
I think 3bet if ok, but agree with a few other posters that the sizing should be bigger...we want to discourage him flatting which forces us to play the hand oop. 85 seems good.

Also, this might make your flop decision a bit easier. With a slightly larger pot OTF you can check shove this board pretty effectively, I think. If we c/c than c/shove the turn, I think it's optimistic to expect the villain to fold with that much invested.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_124
I think 3bet if ok, but agree with a few other posters that the sizing should be bigger...we want to discourage him flatting which forces us to play the hand oop. 85 seems good.

Also, this might make your flop decision a bit easier. With a slightly larger pot OTF you can check shove this board pretty effectively, I think. If we c/c than c/shove the turn, I think it's optimistic to expect the villain to fold with that much invested.
The point of c/c, c/shove is not to have fold equity, it's to widen villain's range and let him barrel. Completely agree with you about preflop sizing - you want to lower the SPR oop with KQ.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 09:19 PM
3bet is fine if you see him opening light, which you did. Don't like that your image is bad though, but whatever. Also, live you should probably 3bet a little bigger. I like making it around $70

OTF, this is a trivial call. You need to call $320 into $660, you're getting roughly 2:1 on your money so you only need like 33% equity to call here. Even if we give him an absurdly tight range of 99+, AQ, we're still getting 33.2% equity on our call. I gave a closer range to what I think is accurate below, and you have around 46% equity.

TT+, 9c9d, 9c9h, 9c9s, 8c8d, 8c8h, 8c8s, AcKc, AQs-AJs, KQs, QcJc, QdJd, JcTc, JdTd, Tc9c, 9c8c, AQo, KQo

Board: Qh Td 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.650% 37.80% 07.85% 16090 3343.00 { KhQd }
Hand 1: 54.350% 46.50% 07.85% 19794 3343.00 { TT+, 9c9d, 9c9h, 9c9s, 8c8d, 8c8h, 8c8s, AcKc, AQs-AJs, KQs, QcJc, QdJd, JcTc, JdTd, Tc9c, 9c8c, AQo, KQo }
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 09:56 PM
I'm pretty meh on the 3! from SB with king-high. Calling then c/r the flop if hit is preferrable, imo.

As others said, the 3! was a bit light. Counting your call of 20, there's $45 in the pot, so the 3! shoulda been closer to $80-90.

With the 3! to $60, Villain only has to call $40 for an $85 pot. That's hardly putting him to the test.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-25-2011 , 10:01 PM
Three bet more, bet/call the flop. It is obv not a great spot but playing aggro against aggro players has inherent variance and 100BB will go in pretty light in three bet pots.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-26-2011 , 02:50 AM
lol to some of these responses...

3b is fine, maybe 70 or 75 is better, and on the flop against a aggro player im pretty happy gettin it in here. hes gonna have QJ, AJ and some Jx's

cawllll
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-26-2011 , 04:14 AM
I'll never understand the desire for so many 2+2ers to want to get into dicksize competitions like this. Yes, by all means raise pre oop with KQ for what amounts to a little better than a coinflip if you are putting him on any pair, any ace, any king, any queen, and any broadway card. If you put him on that bad of a range, yes, then this is a call...

It's one thing to press an advantage but you have 2 dollars invested in this pot... but by all means knock yourself out lol.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-26-2011 , 01:46 PM
I would call preflop, I don't care how aggro he's been. It is not a good idea to bloat pots oop with marginal hands. As played I would call. His range is alot wider than most of these people think with your small 3bet when he is going to be in position.

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, JT, JQ, JK, KQ, J9, TT, 99, T9, T8, QT and complete air seeing that he has seen you cbet/ fold.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-27-2011 , 04:53 PM
3betting in a spot where you dominate his opening range but aren't very ahead of much of his range of hands that flat 3bets is always going to be pretty spewy.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote
11-27-2011 , 11:16 PM
AP, vomit in mouth a little and call/shove. Oop 3 bet is fine as long and your nuts don't shrivel as they did on the flop. If flop action is any question whether this is instacall then take the other conservative line.
2/5 NL 3bet out of the blinds flopped TP Quote

      
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