Villain is a decent but breakeven player. I have never seen him bet here like this where he cold calls a PFR then bombs the flop/turn. This is purely value/protection where he isn't trying to set his own price. Villain views me as a solid big winner in the game.

I hate raising the flop because I think villains range is likely AT, 98, TT/66/77, and 67s. On the turn I asked him what he had and he goes "I don't have a flush draw so just fold yours" and I got the feeling that he had a huge hand. The funny thing is if the flop was rainbow I'd probably raise/call the flop because he is never potting it with the stone cold nuts like 98, but since the FD is out there he doesn't want me to check behind and outplay him with position.

Effective Stacks are 500

Straddled pot

Hero is dealt KK

Hero raises 30 in EP
Folds to Villain who calls in the Straddle

Flop is T67

Villain bets 65
Hero calls

Turn is Q

Villain bets 115
Hero folds

Weak?

When someone leads into the PFR for a PSB on the flop AND the turn, you have good reason to believe your pair is beat. Unless he's known to be an aggressive, bluffy player, you can thank him for playing with his hand face-up.

It's a sick feeling to have to fold an overpair that quickly but I think this is a pretty good situation to do so.

I don't think my hand is face up at all on the turn, and I think if he was trying to set a price with a draw he bets less on the flop so I really discounted it.

Oh man you're killing me here 11t

HE'S THE STRADDLER!!!!!

OMG man, whenever someone straddles they become emotionally vested in the hand and their range really widens and they overvalue ANYTHING that they hit.

This V is likely to bet ANY Pair + draw.

His range in this spot is as wide as the Grand Canyon. I can see him betting T8o like this easy, pair plus gut shot type hands all day here....

Raise turn here all day long and I'd have ZERO problem playing for stacks vs the straddler.

Your hand is so underrepped here that V has every reason to believe that his pair is good and that you are on the draw.... Or he could be drawing or he could have complete air.

Sure, he could also have luckboxed 2p, but in these situations vs the straddler, your KK are going to be ahead the VAST majority of the time here.

Or another way to think about this, what do you think V puts you on???

Are you aggressive 11t? I want to know why he would lead here. Have you been known to spazz with overpairs? Have you been viewed as weak tight?

Usually when I lead into a semi competent player is because I know he respects me as a player. Will view my donk as strong and or will fold to a flop donk or a turn bet.

Grunching ...

FD is not potting the flop, AcTc probably CR, and ATo not leading the turn. Not sure what to make of opponent's FD comment, but TP not good here. Nice fold.

If villain has a hand like TPNK he is check/calling the flop/turn. I have a ton of history with this player and I am pretty confident he isn't spazzing here.

I guess my read on the situation was that villain almost always has value hands here.

Fwiw I thought that calling the turn/folding to another river bet was better than raise/folding since if he has a lot of bluffs in his range I want to keep it wide.

I do agree that villain likely puts me on a draw/weak made hand and could be value betting AT (which I think is at the bottom of his range). I do agree that I could jam here on the turn but I just couldn't see what I beat since i don't see why a FD would set a price by bombing the flop.

Nah he views me as a very solid big winning player. I took his donk as a "I have a big hand and don't want to get drawn out on" situation. Obviously (as dgiharris points out) he could be spazzing but I didn't feel like he was.

You didn't answer any of my questions. I pick on known winners all the time. Its a leveling war.

Lol no I do not spazz with over pairs and no I am not weak tight.

Villain does not think I respect him as a player.

I pretty much never disagree with dgiharris but I do here. That's quite a generalized assumption to make about every player who straddles, especially one seen as a "decent, breakeven player."

I have no clue why he would donk if you don't spazz or don't check back a lot of flops.

Checking back flops isn't weak tight fwiw, this flop definitely hits his range more than mine and I would be checking back if I had missed overcards

Bingo!! I see why he leads here. Weak tight to me is a player who checks back missed over cards. Basically ABC tag is what people call it on here.

His lead is weak you should be raising this flop all day.

Lol the issue isn't you check back missed cards its that you bet board textures that hit your perceived range more than their perceived range

C'mon Mr. Galfond

call/call/fold (if board bricks out) i think is fine in this spot. bluffing frequency generally plummets as you go from flop, turn, river.

it is very rare, and only some of the best/sickest players will have worse here and think "i'm gonna bet biggish on the flop/turn so that i make more money when he folds to my river shove"... plus, they'd have to be very confident that you'd fold to their river shove after calling twice! (point being, although it sounds exploitable, you're not generally being exploited by calling flop, calling turn, then folding river even if nothing changes)


btw, if OOP against a well above average player, this is a good spot to balance by check/calling with over pairs instead of c-betting.

If I'm the pfr any A/K/Q/J/10 high flop I'm cbetting. If I have a backdoor draw, overs +bdfd or a read that villain has a tight calling range +position I will check back. But any of those flops hits my perceived range. So I will be cbetting especially vs loose passive's. I play aggressive, I mean business when I enter a pot.

I don't say "I missed I'm going to check back". I have to have a good reason. I don't give free cards to passive players.

I admit, it is a sweeping generalization, so fine, let me take my emotional arguments out of this.

#1 Can we agree that the straddler's range is fairly wide???
#2 Can we also agree that Hero's hand is grossly underrepped?
#3 Can we agree that there are several draws on the board?

Given all that, we can surmise that V's range is still fairly wide and that V claimed the iniative on the flop and thus is likely to continue that initiative with ANY pair and ANY draw on turn.

Add all that up, and I just can't see myself folding KK.

Now, this would be different if we didn't underrep our hand. I mean, if we raised flop and THEN V bets into us on turn or V c/r us on turn that is a completely different animal.

but when you have #1, #2, and #3 and that we've been pretty weak post flop I just can't see how KK is a good fold.

Can V have 2p or better? Sure. However, there are sooooo many hands that we beat that V can take this line with.

I can see V doing this with QX, Tx, or Qx, as well as 2p and sets....

So if we add that all up, KK is ahead.

To say that Tx or TPNK or draws will check turn isn't accurate imo. V took the initiative on the flop so imo he is going to continue aggression on turn with 75% of his range that enabled him to bet flop.

I will say that a KK fold here isn't terrible, but I think its -EV given the way everything progressed and board texture.

Do you think the turn is a jam/fold?

I just got lost in the hand because I had never seen villain do anything like this before

+4million

I like the call on the flop. I'd expect to be ahead of his donking range, but his getting it in range on the flop is probably big draws/hands that beat us, it's your classic slightly ahead/way behind spot. Basically I think your analysis is right, though I'd include a lot tens/99/88 in his donking range.

There are some turns I'd be shoving on, but this isn't one. The overcard coming on the turn makes it easier for him to get away from hands like AT/T9/T8/78/99/88. Still I think we're ahead of a lot of his range - basically tens that he's confused himself with - so I'd call again.

River play is quite interesting. I find that one pair hands will usually check if it comes scary, like an 8/9/J or a club, so I'd probably fold if he shoves on one of these, but if he checks on a low card or if the board pairs (except a ten) then I think we can fire out a value bet, I'd expect him to call with a bare ten or QcXc putting us on a missed draw.

Obviously we run the risk of being bluffed out on certain rivers or paying off his flopped 2 pairs/sets/straights, but I think if we value bet the river appropriately it's profitable to call on the turn.

I think your hand is grossly under-repped when you flat the flop.

Competent players may think that you're always raising the wet flop to charge draws with strong hand, and the flat represents draws and AK.

I honestly don't like the turn barrel, given that Q hits our range pretty hard, but I have seen many players that simply don't stop barreling until you give them a reason to stop.

I actually don't mind flatting turn and shoving river.

I'm raising flop, villain is not going to shove unless we are beat. If he has any strong draws he wants to see a turn card. He might freeze us and see the river cheap as well.

Guess I'm the only one, but in a vacuum I raise a pot sized raise on the flop, to 240 or so, and barring soul read am committing myself.

Then your hand is definitely faced up.