2/5 8 handed 500 cap

V: talkative older guy, semi reg old school type player

Hero: solid winning image, tight

800 eff

Folds to hero in LP, opens to 20 w/ K J, V calls to our left, all others fold.

Flop (47): J 9 7

Hero leads for 25, V raises to 75, hero calls.

Turn (197): A

Hero checks, V bets 100

Thoughts?

call. And evaluate.

Do you have any idea on his range on the flop? I mean reads are very important here but your description on V does not provide much info

Bet More On the Flop. I would go 40. It's a drawy board and you want to charge all those draws and weak top/middle pair with/out straight draw. How you react to the Raise otf depends from your read on villain. Can he Raise you and keep aggression with a draw? Or is this always 2pair+?
Turn as played depends again on your reads on villain. Would he keep aggression on with a draw or would he slow down? And more important: does he pay you off if you hit your flush on the river?

cbet much bigger like $35 at least

Then 3b flop and don't fold

That's a pretty horrendous turn card.

You are pretty much f***ed against his AXdd, AJ, T8, and sets, plus you're OOP. Any reason to believe he is capable of having bluffs? Like significant amounts of bluffs?

I'm probably folding OOP, since we can never make the nuts now and have no idea when we are safe to contribute more money to the pot. It may be a different story IP, but still isn't a dream spot.

I agree with cbetting a bit bigger but it's not that big of a deal. Do we know anything about how old school semi reg plays? If I had to guess I would think that's means tight passive so we aren't really in a spot where we can do too much if that's the case. Based off lack of info we should probably just fold ott. We are oop so getting value will most likely be extremely difficult if we do get there. I doubt we have the best hand at the moment.

Absent reads or history folding ott is fine

Lol at this. What do you think accomplish 3 bet flop to 180-230? You get all his air/non nut draw fold (if you are lucky AJ and some two pair fold too) and all his set+ call/shove. And if he shoves on that flop are you going to call him off with tpgk+fd? Good luck doing this. Remember villain is an old man, he isn't going to put his stack in with less of top pair 100% of the time here. We have good equity, but not that strong hand plus we are oop. I'm going to flat and play poker with that man.
Reads on villain are super important here. Without read Vs an old man I'm going to fold turn. Being oop 150+bb sucks

You put more money in the pot when you oftentimes have the best hand and the rest of the time have the best draw.

FYP

With what's got to be 45% equity worse case scenario? Yes. Sucks but sometimes you gotta flip for 150bbs

Heh was described as an old man, not specifically OMC. There is a pretty big difference and some of the old timer gamblers have some decent aggro in them.

Do you know hard hard it is to flop a pair in this god forsaken 2 card game?!?

Yes, exactly. IP we'd be much more inclined to flat a x/r from villain for example.

Look you don't always need to go HAM when you flop pair+fd. Say you call an UTG raise for example with A4, he cbets 80% pot A72

Raising here would accomplish nothing (for some of the reasons you list), but I see folks raise it all the time. The key is to realize the differences between that example and OP's example. (position, texture, and range)

Lol Avarita isn't the one Twentythrees. Wave the white flag

Depends way too much on villain. Raising and gii otf is probably a bit better than calling and "playing poker" though. It's just so hard to flat and make money here oop vs the average llsnl villain. At least if we raise/gii we have decent equity.

Would you bet/3bet 56dd, QTdd ect., maybe just flat naked Ahi FD or AJ/overpair

if was about to say in a less treatening flop I always 3bet with ur hand because u block Jd for full house - u should never be less than 33% with Jd and in all otherxases u are ahead. but on this specific flop - NFD eg ATs or A8s has foo much equity to fold.

AP in game i call turn but with a minimum of analysis he rep AXs and i might find a fold?.

why dont u bet turn??

RIO/gut reaction to the Ace. I felt that V had basically T8, J9 or Ahi FD. If V has A+FD we're like dead, and we're drawing live to Vs two-pair/straight but I'm not sure we can make much more if a diamond comes on the river, maybe like 110-125.

Maybe bet/fold turn like 125 in case V was getting frisky w/ JT/QJ.

Once V raises flop, I range him on T8, 99, 77, maybe JJ (though only one combo left and it may have 3-bet pre), J9s, 97s, maybe AJ, and then some bluffs which are usually Axdd, QTdd, some other combos of QT and a bit of spazz.

A on the turn is a terrible card for us. All his Ax combos just got there. We're really only ahead of QT and spazz now. Presumably he often checks behind with QT on the turn anyway. I fold turn, especially because his range has enough Axdd that any diamond carries some RIO for us.

Well don't fold... what's the river


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Pretty standard flop x/c since we're at a big range disadvantage and should be checking most of our range on this flop. We can only get two streets of value here, and we need to protect our checking range. Opponents will also stab this pot a lot once we check since they expect us to always bet our value hands, so we make money off their bluffs. Also we're getting raised by any value hand, and 3b/gii OTF is terrible.

As played, turn is whatever. Probably better to fold since we're mostly just drawing to the diamond draw (some outs are dead vs boats), and sometimes we're dead vs TP + NFD.

Check flop? What? Surely you cannot be serious.

Ever heard of being balanced/being deceptive? Like I said, boards that favor our opponents' calling range and heavily disfavor ours we should be checking the majority of our range (e.g. AA with Ad, etc). If you don't check hands like these, all that's left in your checking range is basically air. It also allows our opponents to make a lot more mistakes if we are balanced on this type of board. I mean, if you can counter any of the above statements, I'm up for it. Like do think you can get more than 2 streets here from a worse hand? If not, one street has to be checked. Doesn't really matter which one, but for our range it is best OTF.

Note: I am not an obsessive advocate of GTO like a few players here are. Being balanced and trying to play GTO are two separate, although overlapping, things.

What's your checking range and betting range on this flop given the preflop action?

Seems like a fist pump 3bet on the flop. As played, call and see the river.

Folding turn is crazy, are we sure villain doesn't raise qj,jt here?

What about qq, kk?

Raising turn can also be a strong line to take as played

against villain described we should mostly be afraid of bottom set, aj

If villain raises a suited ace here our decision is much harder but given description I'm not convinced, I'd lean towards raising and maybe just jam to maximize fe

We hope he has KK QQ so we have a lot more outs? that says we are behind anyway no problem to fold with all RIO.

JQ TJ are not as many combos as the ones we lose to. A hits our range so TJ JQ is not mandatory bet turn - keep the SDV.

so we should be rlly behind

FWIW I agree checking this flop is pretty standard, just I think you can get away with being fairly unbalanced and bloating this specific pot with this specific hand at llsnl (even though actually this hand really isn't that awesome facing significant action.)

Vs. someone capable of thinking or vs. someone very aggro I would definitely check / call. I guess vs someone insanely aggro I'd bet/min 3b or something silly but yea.

Other hands I'd check here would be overpair with a , AJx, bare AK, etc. Checking a lot rly so as Minatorr says it's good to have some sweet nut making hands (that also already have sdv) in your check/calling range.

This is absolutely ******ed reasoning. Why are we at a big range disadvantage? Why in the world do we need to 'protect our checking range'? Do you think Villain knows what that means? Do you even know what it means? You think villains will bluff at this scary board a lot, but at the same time will never raise with a draw?

Folding the turn is just awful. If you're just scared money, go play bingo.


a) Why in the world would we want to check this flop? We have TPGK and a K-high flush draw and possible back-door straights. I'm building a pot up. Plus, it's a scary board, and all sorts of cards - including cards that make our hand - kill our action. I'm c-betting this like 100% of the time. I'm also c-betting a bit bigger. Checking this flop is just horrible.

b) The flop raise is interesting. My 'grunch' reaction was that it was almost always a fist-pump shove.

Let's just go with a fairly standard observation re: older players and assume that this is never a bluff.

AA, KK, AK, QQ - hard to think that an older player would just flat with these hands pre-flop. Maybe only give a 1 combo each of AA and KK and two combos of QQ plus half the combos of AK.

Only 1 combo of JJ, let's give him that.

Actually, we can dismiss AK, A9 and A7, those hands are never raising the flop as played.

I'm not convinced that an 'older, old-school' player makes a 3x flop raise with just AJ. In my experience it would be a smaller raise. There's also a small but non-zero chance Villain thought Hero's small c-bet was weak. Very villian dependent.

Other value hands that a player might raise with on this flop: AdQd, AdTd, QT, T8, JJ, 99, 77, J9s, 97s. I'd normally assume that an older player probably wouldn't play A2s-A6s, but we'll give him all the Ax suited diamond combos.

We're in great shape against all the NFDs, since there are fewer diamonds to hit and we already have a pair. We're not doing great against sets of course. But we crush all his other draws, and we're not doing horribly even against flop straights.

Against that entire range, my hunch was correct - we're actually a favorite:

Board: Jc 9d 7d
Hand 0: 52.5% { KdJd }
Hand 1: 47.5% { JJ, 99, 77, AdQd, AdTd, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, QTs, J9s, T8s, 97s, QTo, T8o }


So yes - on the flop this is a fist-pump 3! to get it in.

c) On the turn as played, call and evaluate. If a King, Jack or diamond hits, bet/fold (and I'd bet on the smaller size); otherwise it's probably a check/fold. Sometimes our turn call will freeze him and we can get a free showdown.

You think this is a bet/3bet vs all players and only debatable against the nittiest of guys or we flopped so big its just whatever, bet/3bet stack off.

Im not a fan of checking flop really. Better to get value from T9, 54dd ect. than to check for deception/later value.

If you can't even understand why we are at a range disadvantage, you are ******ed. I don't even need to continue reading the rest of your post to know it's garbage.

A check here is completely standard, as Avaritia and I have explained.

The range you assign for your GII range is wrong. There's zero chance on earth he's 100% having ALL combos of NFDs in his flop raising range.

And let's say the range you assign him is correct. OTT you half the time you cannot draw to the flush anymore and he paired his Ace, and half the time you are drawing only to the diamond draw (some of which are dead outs due to board pairing). In that case, calling is awful.

If you can't understand why in the world we should be checking this, you just need to git gud. It's not an auto cbet because "oh lol I have TPGK + FD."