Reads: I am moving up from $1-3. I am sufficiently rolled and not taking a shot and although I have been playing in the room for around 6 months, I only recognize 1 other player at the table. I am up for this session and have been playing well. Players in this hand: the UTG player is a straight forward probably breakeven to winning player on the tighter side. The button is a winning player but is losing tonight and may be playing a little looser than normal. The EP & LP players are loose gambly players.

UTG ($550): raises to $25
EP ($450): flats the $25.

HERO ($1300): looks down at JJ and raises to $85. My standard is to raise 3X any original raise when 3 betting in position and I added $10 for the flatter. I was trying to get original raiser to fold and play heads up with the weaker player. With the number of loose gamblers on this table, it probably should have been more, but I was folding to the UTG if he 4 bet so I wanted to be fine with the raise amount. I also didn't want to flat and play my JJ for a set mine which would have happened if I flatted because I would get a couple of more callers! But then this happened.....

LP ($450) and Button ($600) call, UTG calls

Flop ($426, the blinds have pretty much gone to rake/BBJ) 892

UTG checks, EP donks $100 and action is on me. This pot is bloated and wet. I dont want to just flat and I dont want to over commit my hand. I decided to raise and made it $225 (upon reflection, I think this is way too small and with the other stack depths in play I think it is a shove).

LP goes all in, Button goes all in for more, UTG folds, EP goes all in for less. It is now on me to call for something between $300 and $400 into this massive pot and I fold......

Nice fold. There is a set, an overpair and a SAFD or GSAFD or9hXh. Your another J is in one of villains hand too. So you only have a case J if you are thinking about hitting a set.

Raise more pre or just flat. I prefer flatting at a 9 handed table. But if you're going to raise gotta go bigger than $85.

Just get it in on the flop. Obv not a fist pump but the pot is huge, the board is draw heavy and you're playing at a loose, live, gambly table. If you lose chalk it up to variance and think more carefully about your raise sizing prior next time. I like that size more if you have AA or AKs. JJ just a lil more vulnerable.

As played hell I dunno, guess folding and then shooting yourself is the right play. Lol

I think you played it fine. With stacks around 100BB, $85 is enough preflop. When it goes 5 ways to the flop and most villains have an SPR < 1, I'm already looking for a good flop or giving up. When EP donks, I would just flat and see what happens. Hero can easily put him in on safe turn cards and get away if the flush comes in.

As played, fold. It will be very rare you have the best hand, it is only happening if your facing some combination of draws and 9X/TT. Even then against multiple draws your hand won't hold up a lot.

I dont think JJ is always a squeeze in that spot especially when we have a tight straightforward UTG raiser, a caller, and a lot of people yet to act.

If squeezing make it 100

Obv the fold is good otf but I would have flatted the 100 otherwise you are overplaying an upper medium pair in a big multiway pot

Preflop sizing is ok - just bizarre and crappy that two players over call behind you. Probably should go like $105-110 if you want to isolate. I agree with flatting OTF. When you raise flop and there is shove, call, call - you have now priced yourself in with what will probably end up being like the third best hand here (call ~$300 more to win a pot of over $2k). Gross spot, but could prob be avoided by slowing down when we go five ways to the flop in a bloated pot and about a 1:1 SPR for all villains.

Yeah .. we are all looking at the PF raise. You 'only' raised $60 into $82 with others to act behind and 2 in front. I think you want to pot it here so you can more easily make a decision on the Flop for the rest of the hand ... so yes, $105 min it is. Once it gets back to the 'front' guys, they are priced in with just about anything and you are now in the middle with very little 'new' information.

AP Flop, your raise ($125 into $625) is very awkward for the rest of the stack sizes, even the B. It is basically the same if you flat .. and saves you chips when you 'need' to fold here.

Your only 'saving' grace here is that you have the 'flush' J, so you may have 2 clean outs, but I would much rather have QQ in this spot to block JT if I choose to continue.

You already know it ... call > shove > raise > fold? (never) initial Flop action. I can even agree that shoving, if so inclined, is better since you don't have to think any more!!

AP .. This is a pretty good price, but you would need to have extreme luck to blank out the board against 3 opponents IF, IF, IF you are even ahead right now. Good Fold in the long run .. GL

Grunch:


$375 to win $2251? That's 6:1. We have backdoor draws, 2 outs to top set, and a bunch of loose gamblers in the pot. We are probably behind, but that's not necessarily enough of a reason to fold. I think this is a call, though the hand could've been played differently before all this mayhem. Either squeeze to $100-$110, or just flat the $25 pre at a 9 handed table. OTF, it is probably better to either flat the $100 or just jam. The SPR is so tiny that it'd be hard to justify folding an overpair on this board, so jamming can't be horrible.

It's still 75bb ... a bit to chew off .. not sure we even have 16% here against (and with) all the draws. If we hit our 9% set, we are still probably 30% or more to lose on River against flush and straight. I don't think we can really expect to be ahead here enough to warrant 75bb IMO.

If we are ahead, we are probably only 40% at best to win and I don't think we are ahead enough to make up the difference for the times we are 'ahead', but behind the field.

This is one of those 'feel' folds where the math may 'seem' good but it just doesn't make sense against 3 opponents. GL

Raise folding this shallow in a 3b pot is bad. It seems you didn't really have a plan otf. Flat the $100 or jam to ISO and get value from fds.

I don't disagree with you at all, but calling off can't be too bad either. There's just so much in the pot now that I'd hate to just forfeit it after putting in almost 50% of effective stacks and getting almost correct odds. I don't typically like to gamble, but I think this spot is appealing enough for me to rip the slot machine.

Play a medium sized pot with a medium sized hand. Break that rule and this is the type of fiasco players get into.

Flat pre vs an UTG tight range.

This is also why 4 bet - calling AK AA and KK is so profitable, as too many players overplay their TT and JJ in this way. Stacking off with TT JJ wont be profitable vs competent opponents. 3 bet folding TT and JJ wastes the hand as well. Flatting is the answer.

How does anyone in this hand have QQ+?

I would perhaps put UTG or EP on QQ max here. (I certainly hope never more as well!!) We are mainly looking at sets and multiple draws that make us a dawg here going forward 'collectively' against the field. Frankly, I don't really see a big difference between us holding JJ-AA here except the obvious elimination of 'single' outs that can beat us.

With 2 cards to come what are we hoping for? A 3 and a 4, non-flush please .. twice in a row also, Thanks dealer. All other cards in the deck, even a J can help someone who hit this Flop ...

A, K, Q .. anyone with an over can take the lead (probably a flush drawing opponent with live over cards.
J through 5 .. anyone with straight draw or pair (other than our JJ) can hit this range
3 and 4 ... safe cards on Turn and probably River, except hearts
2 .. doubt this can hurt us too much either, and it will help against lower 2 pair hands.

So 10 cards out of deck we feel safe about after taking 3h4h out .. and we need to hit 2 of them in a row. Granted 'these guys' are sharing cards too, but it just doesn't feel as good as the math makes it out to be IMO. GL

Let's get real. A snug Hero just 3bet a 5x UTG open and you don't think QQ (or maybe even KK) could be in LP or BTN's ranges? Heck, some fish might even flat AA here trying to trap.

Or do you think they cold-called $85 with 76o because "hey, they're gambooly"?

with these stack sizes no i dont. maybe QQ sometimes but i doubt it. LP has under 100bb and btn only 120bb there is 220 in the pot when it gets to lp and over 300 when it gets to the button and you expect to see QQ+ as a sizeable portion of their flatting range?

Sometimes you have to go backwards at these games. You have to figure out preflop range by the actions they take postflop. It's counter intuitive and strange but that's how some villains play in these games. They are fishes remember ? I m only speaking from experience. I already said it doesn't make a sense but I won't be surprised if one of the villains showed up with QQ+. Three players are all in.

If anyone shows down QQ+ in this spot, I'd lol as my eyeballs spun quickly and turned into dollar signs. There'd also be a cash register sound at some point.

It was wrong, but my plan was basically what I ended up doing. I didn't want to leave the bet at $100 on the flop because these guys proved pre flop that $100 didn't mean much, so I wanted to make it something more substantial that I could still fold if all hell broke loose behind me (which is what happened). I think in hindsight the best action was to just commit on the flop.

Anyway, results: both LP and button had flush draws (button AQhh) and the EP donk had 33! The 33 took down a massive pot and after he finished stacking his chips 15 minutes later, racked up and left!

Was that a made set or he hit on turn or river. When 3 people go all in on a not already made board, i have never seen where one villain doesnt have a set.

I believe a pair of treys won the hand.

I had composed a response and never finished it to post but in a nutshell 3! Larger or flat pre, raise flop larger/shove or flat. ANLs advice is sound but with these stacks JJ can be played ax a big hand with this lineup IMO. But you really have to decide pre what your plan is when you flop an overpair. With so many to the flop it's understandable that we are concerned but playing it middle of the road is probably the worst option.

For 3! Sizing I usually start at 3-4x an open raise and 2-3x + the pot when there have been callers. Obv adjust from there.

Disciplined gold as played. You should be against 2p or sets a lot with this action. Sick price tho.

Glad your 2/5 sesh went well.

Dont be result oriented. With three villains going all in, you are almost always behind a set or 2p. U r lucky u found yourself in such a soft game. If you have,t at least doubled or tripled your buy in on this session, then you have some learning to do.

Yeah, the flop is gross. I think this is a clear, clear shove.