2-5 NL live
i have jacks under the gun, i decide to limp in and go for the check raise,
utg+3 opens for 15, utg +5 raises to 45, action on me?


i know utg +3 likes to bully the table and steal blinds and will raise with any ace rag etc... so i give him no credit for having a big hand, i am almost certain from prior experience and his bet sizing that utg +5 has AK, i have about $250 and i barely cover utg +5, is it okay to shove allin here knowing that utg +5 will call?

if i had queens does the shove allin become more positive ev?

Firstly, limp raising is a donkey move

Secondly both JJ and QQ have the same equity vs AK so if you know he has AK you can shove here 100% of the time.

55/45 is big +EV but it is high variance

+ there is more money in from UTG+3 and blinds!
If you don't mind high variance and getting close to even money on a race then go for it!
(how do you KNOW he has AK? does he raise more with AA KK QQ?) UTG +5 is always going to call with AK? I don't see many 4b shoves getting called with AK. So if he folds some of the time it makes it way more profitable.

First the easy part: both QQ and JJ are a 56-44 favorite over a range of {AKo, AKs} so no you aren't any better off with QQ in that spot than JJ.

It's a huge mistake to pigeon hole your opponents on a single hand. There's no way you can be even close to 100% certain UTG+5 is holding exactly AK. You said his bet sizing gave it away. Would he 3-bet to 45 with AA-QQ? Could he be 3-betting light because UTG+3 is so aggressive preflop? Limping UTG and then shoving over a 3 bet screams AA or KK, so how can you be so certain that he'll call with AK?

You didn't post stack sizes so I can't even begin to suggest a better line to take other than this: JJ is too weak to limp-reraise. Just raise it yourself next time.

Come on...explain yourself if you want to label something as donkey move. There are perfectly good instances where limp/raise are super profitable.

$72 dead money in the pot and you have $250 behind. If villain has AK, it's an easy shove all day long.

Ps. This is a very simple poker stove exercise and doesn't require a thread.

Lol @ UTG+5. Try calling it mid position (MP) or the Button, Cutoff, or Hijack.
Limp raising from EP is generally a move done by fish. Knowledgable players will put you on AA or KK when u do it, so either don't do it or understand what you're representing when u do. The L/R jam is fine but high variance as already stated. This guy might be a super fish but know that when you do this against most players the only hands they'll call u with crush you.

Not nearly enough information included in OP and UTG+5 isn't a real thing.

bb is utg+8 now, haven't you heard?

You guys just got leveled me thinks.

So, is it "fine" or a fish move? If limp-raising is only done with KK and AA, then why is Hero doing it with JJ?

I have a problem with certain "moves" that are type-cast in this way; sometimes, it seems like players are more concerned with not-looking-like-fish, than actually adapting to table-dynamics and making the most profitable play.

I believe Hero's in a good position here to take down a $60 pot or get-it-in with decent equity.

Let's look at the alternative line, raising UTG, with two likely scenarios:

(1) called by UTG+3 and re-raised by Villain.
(2) called by UTG+3 and Villain.

Are these better? (1) he has to 4-bet shove with a short-stack or fold with JJ; (2) has to play a multiway pot from OOP, where there's a decent chance the board will contain over cards to his JJ.

At least with a check/rise line he's heads-up and less likely to have play post-flop OOP with a short-stack. I think I'd rather be a fish here ...

It is a donkey move because it is a player who is unwilling or incapable of playing post flop OOP trying to win a small pot preflop. It is as donkey as those old men who always raise 10xbb pf with AA just because they don't want to risk getting them cracked.

OP hasn't provided a lot of information to this hand, but few things we do know from the little bit of information he provided.

1. Hero has $250 or 50BB.

2. "utg +3 likes to bully the table and steal blinds and will raise with any ace rag etc"

So given the fact that hero is short-stacked at 50BB and there's a very loose player behind that likes to raise, you don't think it's a good idea to limp/raise with potential dead money?

Do you think it's better to raise 4BB from UTG with JJ, hope there aren't 4 or 5 callers, and outplay everyone post-flop with JJ?

So JJ and AA are the same hand, then? I know you don't mean this, but you should explain WHY this a donkey move. Surely, AA is an easier to play post-flop than JJ, and there are valid reasons for taking a pot worth nearly 30% of your stack without seeing a board. What's OP meant to do with your post? Not make "donkey moves" in the future. That's helpful.

Firstly, If you aren't willing to sit with the max at a table of 100xbb I'd suggest moving down stakes unless you are going to short stack pushbot at 20xbb. Obviously there might be extraneous circumstances such as max buy in or w/e but I simply assume the max buy in is 100xbb.

The problem with limp raising are these:

1) You aren't maximizing your hourly rate by getting as much value as you should from your top tier hands
2) You are telegraphing your hand, and especially with something like JJ the range of hands that are continuing against you has a lot of equity versus your range
3) You don't know utg+3 is going to raise here and you don't know utg+5 is going to 3-bet. You aren't a psychic so lets not pretend we are. If utg+3 likes to bully is he 3-betting light or just attacking limpers? OP claims he is open raising to steal the blinds but he is in MP so we can't really infer that either. The entire premise of limp raising is a lack of willingness to make difficult decisions and an attempt to win a pot preflop and if somebody calls you, you are likely in trouble. It would likely be better to use a truly polarized range here and only limp/reraise with AA and 65s and 98s because if the entire table is at 50xbb people see the limp rr and go "fml he has AA/KK" and if somebody continues in the hand against you they likely have QQ+.

Yes sometimes you will raise PF utg with JJ and a chain of people will call and you will not win the pot, but sometimes you will spike a set and win a massive pot and sometimes (~40% of the time) there will be no overcards and you will win the pot and sometimes it will be folded around but winning poker requires putting yourself in spots where you maximize your wins and minimize your losses. Limp reraising here with JJ minimizes your wins and maximizes your losses. Limp reraising with AA/KK here just minimizes your wins. If we were to draw a map where "amazing poker player" was a location, limp reraising would be the distances furthest from.

All of our lives would be better, our win rates higher, and I could sound less pedantic if we simply removed this move (and I stand by calling it a donkey move) from our tool box.

limp re raising is usually bad - but if u got a player at the table that you are 90% sure is going to raise his hand, and you know he will than it's not bad.

I saw a pro do it once he was $400 deep at 3/6NL 6max and he was UTG with 88. He limped in for $6 and this aggressive button raised it, and we 3bet, and he shoved all in and we called and he had A2! He did manage to hit an ace on the flop, but it still made me question that maybe limp reraising isn't that bad of a play if you have aggressive donks at the table.

Cheers, I'm more convinced by your response, now that you've provided sound reasoning to support it. I agree that if OP had "chipped-up" then limp-raising with 100BB would be far more problematic, largely because he may well be dominated by QQ+. If OP was intentionally playing short, because the table was full of LAGs and JJ was generally ahead in a 4-bet situation, then his limp-raise would be justified.

*Grunch* #2

Why did you "decide" to go for the limp/rr with JJ? Just raise it up the first time around. Your plan here is FPS.

WTF is UTG+5? How many people at the table? Is this hijack? Cutoff?

Why do you discredit UTG +3? He is not in blind stealing position. Why are you certain he does not have a hand? Even maniacs catch cards sometimes.

why are you sure that UTG+5 has AK? How are his AA/KK three bets different?

The main issue here is that there was likely some sort of crazy metagame going on not that this is not a valid response but that it isn't directly transferrable.

Basically what goes on at a 3/6 NL table online is not often applicable to a live setting. They are different games, it is like cricket vs baseball.

With your reads and 50 BB, this is easy shove.