Pretty sure he just checks back all worse hands on the flop except maybe JJc. I highly doubt he bets KKc since he blocks the hands he wants to fold. He also likely won't fold better and won't call with worse. But the board is so wet and we are OOP that letting another card peel off can be a disaster. After checking, what do we do on clean turns? What about dirty turns? If we show too much weakness, he absolutely will lean on us.

So the question is: How much do you want to lose if you bet while behind, to protect your equity while ahead? I think its pretty much a guessing game as to whether or not he has a club.

I think I would fire $150

x/r is interesting because if I have his range too narrow pre, he's going to be having less equity on the flop and stabbing more often. I can also rep stronger, though he's never folding better than 1 pair hands to me because my range contains hands like AKc, KKc, KQs. I'm pretty sure I got his range right, but who knows. The only problem is if he has better, we are committed and drawing dead when we xr. If he has worse, he doesn't call the xr. Bad RIO.

You don't. I'd look to check/fold this flop.

That's a definite option, but I think you need to fire one bet....especially against a good friend (that you play hard against).

I suggest you start your own thread and discuss this theory of yours. It doesnt belong here and I am willing to bet you find out most people think you are wrong.

Agreed, x/c is burning money.
I think preflop he might be peeling my 4b a little wider than he should.

If we are checking some value hands here then I can see how checking can work out. But there's 15 ****ty turn cards that he can play pretty perfect on if we check, so I don't know if I should ever be checking value hands here.

Some friends will not 3b/4b lite. Last year we rode to the casino together, playing 5/T with a mega whale and the d-bag 3b me with 34cc towards the end of the night, and got half my stack on J97c5c2c vs my 99. Then he felted the whale. Then I had to drive him home lol . He felt bad about it after, but I had no hard feelings because I know some people choose to hold nothing back on the battlefield and I can respect that.

If we count combos (which I haven't done) I think this is around the middle of our range after we reduce combos for lite 4b.

You must not be very friendly.

You are delusional.

+1

Andees, do you even have a betting range here? Lol

Small with sets and like red AK or something I guess?

Lol That guy is so funny. Why would he even come to 2p2? 2p2 should be unethical and colluding in his eyes as well.

Your 4 betting range is really bad, way too wide. It should still be around half to two thirds light 4bets though, and A5s is great for a light 4bet. As played, check/call is proba ly best if the flop wasnt monotone, but it's probably neutral EV at best, maybe even losing c/c long term. And we would have to c/f almost any turn. Monotone flop, our situation is much wosee and it's closer to c/f.

Light 4b range, you say. Because you think that folks are gonna fold their to a 4b alot?

"1/2 to 2/3rds light 4b". Are you really saying that 1/2 to 2/3rds of the time you 4b, they should be light 4b?

Would like to see some V's range, effective stacks and some math generally to justify this.

In the range you didn't discount, {AQs (3), AK (12), TT (3), JJ (3), QQ (3), KK (3), AA} are all better. Only KK/JJ no club seem worse to hold.

In the range you discounted {AJs (3), ATs (3), A9s-A6s (12), 55-99 (15), KJs (3)} are all better. In your entire range with nothing discounted there are 63 hands better than your holding, and 33 worse hands. If you discount the second range by 2/3, then you have 39 better hands and 15 worse hands.

When you bet with this hand and get called or raised you might as well have two napkins because you're almost never going to win the hand. The only benefit of having this hand in your bluffing range is that it blocks a couple hands that can continue without blocking his folding range.

Your 4! range seems way too wide.

I want to tack on that IME 4-bets have a ton of fold equity at 2|5 because players put you on KK+. I've seen QQ fold to a 4! on multiple occasions. I get very little action on my 4-bets unless the other player has KK+.

If I was going to 4b light oop vs this v (I wouldn't) I'm making it something huge like 180-200.

I dont understand the friendship. Just check it down? Do you guys wildly bluff each other on the regular?

Correct, unless my read is they 3-bet too infrequently and with too strong of a range, or if they call the 3-bet too often with mediocre hands.

A 4-bet range of AA and KK plus between 12 and 16 light 4-bet combos performs MUCH better than OP's incredibly wide, weak, and unpolarized range.

He is picking many hands that do much better as just a flat. His range is closer to what a normal 3-bet range would be rather than 4-bet range. It's like OP isn't respecting the 3-bet at all. Given reads, we should respect that 3-bet (not enough to not have half our 4-bets being light).

I totally agree.

Also, make sure you note/remember who is willing to fold QQ to a 4-bet. Assuming their 3-bet range is QQ-AA and AK, we should now never fold to their 3-bets. Instead of having a normal range of 1/2 to 2/3 light 4-bets, we'll now want to have like 80% of our 4-bets being light. All these extra hands would be the ones at the bottom of our opening range that we'd normally fold.

It would now be more profitable to 4-bet the very worse hand in our opening range than fold it.

No one else hates the sizing pre? I'd go a lot bigger from the sb. Probably 200

I'd bet/fold like $110 and probably check/evaluate all turns except an A.

How are constructing these 12-16 combos and why? I agree with your thoughts re: op's 4 bet range.

Yea, probably something this. I also think checking AK can be ok. With these stacks though I may not cbet too small if we want to be able to just ship turn. Thing is top set is the only one I'll usually have here. Cold 4betting 200bbs deep I'm going super polarized and probably going for the cold flat with QQ

thing is CR basically saying I don't have a flush....

I was trying to respond to each individual thought out post in order, but I think the new discussion is more interesting/important...

My non QQ+ 4b range here is very reduced and villain knows this. I am normally mucking a ton of it, however sometimes I'll go with my gut and 3b or 4b when I feel that there is a high probability that V is light. I can not have a cold-flat range against this villain unless my cold-flat range is wider. My perceived cold flat range would be something like TT-QQ which he will have spot on, (against other villains I might, since they will range me incorrectly), and a range of TT-QQ is going to make it very difficult to win money when we flop well and difficult to not get bluffed.

So, what is the proper ratio of lite 4b to value?
If we include AA, KK, AKs which is 16 combos, we can do something like 4b the range that I included, but only when our suited hands are clubs, and only when our PPs are the same color. If we do A2-A5s 55-99 and KJs KQs, this makes for 17 lite 4b and 16 value 4b while still having a non-polarized range.

I'd use hands that have the best chance of outdrawing KK-JJ, AK, AQ type hands (typical calling range of our 4-bet) and that bluff well because it doesn't matter how our 12-16 combos perform against his 3-bet/folding range and 5-betting range (we'd have to fold these hands to a 5-bet).

Example: a medium suited connector and a small pocket pair have similar equity against against a range of KK-JJ, AK, AQ (small pair is a little higher I think), but a suited connector bluffs much better than the small pair. If the small pair misses flop it's got only 2 outs mostly so it's a bad hand to bluff with. If the suited connector misses flop, it'll often have enough equity to make +EV bluffs (if it flops a pair, flush draw, straight draw, or backdoor flush+straight draw).

I'd also try to pick hands right below our flatting range if it doesn't conflict w/ the rule of hands that do best against his 3-bet/calling range. Example: AQs is probably the best suited ace we'd cold call pre with. Though AJs is right below, I'd fold AJs but but 4-bet A5s since A5s has slightly more equity against his 3-bet/calling range.

So I'd pick 12-16 combos among Ace rag suited and medium suited connectors and I'd try to make it about even (not sure why...just seems right).

Something like A5s-A4s, 78s-89s sounds about right.

Makes sense