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2/5 hand vs unorthodox pro

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03-17-2014 , 12:48 PM

#51

GrindPokerAllDay

banned

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainSquatch

this way of playing has taken me from a break even/losing player to crushing as I've adopted the strategies.

You are the one that stated "Fold to the reraise!" lol. Unfortunately, it's quite possible that you are simply running above expectations. It happens.

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03-17-2014 , 02:09 PM

#52

Troyble

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 346

Betting this turn, and I don't think its close. $80-$90.

-He will fold a lot (maybe all) 1 pair hands weaker than Kx.
-When he calls with Kx or better, he very likely pays off otr when we hit. No one gives an aggressive player credit for making a backdoor flush. Ever.
-He only puts us in a tough spot with a perfectly sized c/r, which I have no reason to believe he's capable of making. We fold easily to a shove (unlikely) snap call and play perfectly otr against a min-raise (more likely) or anything close to that.

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03-17-2014 , 02:44 PM

#53

Troyble

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 346

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainSquatch

So how do we exploit this turn check raise? We check back.

I exploit his value-heavy turn check/raise range by bet/folding when I have KJ, not by checking this hand behind.

Even if he slowplays the flop and check/raises the turn every single time he flops a monster (about 6 total hand combos btw) he is still MUCH more likely to have 1 pair, which has the lions share of the equity against our hand but can't stand up to much heat. This is the part of his range I am looking to exploit here.

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03-17-2014 , 04:38 PM

#54

overun

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 656

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainSquatch

This will probably sound like pure non sense to most of you. I'm ok with that, the game is changing, it's hard to accept that sometimes, but this way of playing has taken me from a break even/losing player to crushing as I've adopted the strategies.

In live low limit no limit, it's rarely correct to play optimally. Yes, I believe that. The whole point to GTO is that every player plays the same, and they play an infinite number of hands. This never happens in live poker. No two players at a table are ever playing the same strategy, and at live we see so few hands that variance may never get the chance to balance out in our entire career. Playing optimally is an online strategy. I'm not saying you can't be a winning player playing optimally, but you'll never crush. You'll never have 3k stacks consistently. You'll probably be stuck somewhere between break even and $30 an hour at 2/5, if variance gets it's way you might even be a losing player.

At these low limits, the best way to play is to exploit the tendencies of the other players at the table. Straight up take advantage of every weakness (and strength) that they show. One of the greatest known tendencies in live poker is that people will raise the turn with the top of their range. It never fails. On a dry flop, everyone waits until the turn to raise their sets, flopped straights, etc. This is where the baluga theorem came from...

So how do we exploit this turn check raise? We check back. Now you're thinking, a double barrel gets the V off the hand when he doesn't have it...so will a pot sized river bet when he checks again. And if V has a strong hand, he will almost always lead the river, leaving us with an easy decision. Doing this takes their power away, and it gives us a free card to draw out on them, and it uses position the way it's supposed to be used. Checking the turn makes them play their hand face up on the river.

Think about how this hand plays differently if OP checks back on the turn? On a blank river, the V would lead out into the $125 pot and OP would fold. The hand never would have been posted. If a heart comes on the river, V probably still leads with his set for around $80-100. OP then raises, and V most likely calls. See how this is entirely different than OP having about half his stack in on the turn with a 22% shot? See how instead of having to win this pot 1/5 times to break even playing "optimally", when we win that 1/5 times using this exploit we make a PROFIT! We lose a maximum of $65 when we miss, and win a minimum of $325 pot when we hit (this is without V calling our river re-raise, he almost always calls, so true minimum is more like $700 pot.)

The thinking in this thread is misapplied internet poker theory or strategy that came out of books 30 years old. Just pay attention to what hand people are raising the turn with, it's always the top of their range.

Quite results oriented thinking. As op mentioned it's very likely villain has a weak made hand on the flop and as such, we should be betting the turn to apply pressure to said hands.

Perhaps if stacks were shallower, then I would agree that a check back would be correct. But as played with the deeper stacks, I'm betting turn all day, and if villain happens to have the top of his range, he'll either win $260 off of me or get stacked.

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03-17-2014 , 08:02 PM

#55

Stickum_11

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 263

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainSquatch

Think about what happened here in this hand, OP almost put his entire stack in the middle on the turn as a 22% dog. It doesn't really matter what the pot odds or implied odds were, this is just a horrible idea. The pro in this hand set this situation up perfectly, and OP fell for the trap. OP, the real meta game started before the hand! You just didn't realize it! The pro put you on tilt, made you think he was willing to play some tricky little game with you, then almost got you to stack off with a 1 in 5 chance of winning. He got you to lose control of your emotions, while he kept full faculty of his, and it worked profitably for him. His turn raise wasn't meant to push you out, it was meant to keep you in! And it worked!

The way OP and everyone else in this thread wants to play these types of hands is never profitable in the long run. It doesn't pay the rent, it isn't backed up by the theory of reciprocity, and it's a fools game.

Please show the quote where I almost stacked off on the turn.... Pretty sure I stated it was a call/fold decision only for me. Tilted? Hardly...

As for your "let's see how THIS hand plays out if we check", THIS hand he had a set, but he's folding almost every other hand. To give up on the turn every hand I hardly think you're "crushing" anything... Can't crush when you never build pots in good spots and just wait to hit hands and try to get paid on one street. You could be a winning player, but "crushing" is delusional with your scared money "strategy" you're describing.

Please give me a better situation to double barrel also, or I suppose you just never do it? You just assign every hand 0% fold equity?

Respect... lost, sorry man.

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