Hero: 3bet with AK a few hands ago and check folded flop. Table just recently opened so Ive havent played many hands yet
Villain: Guy from middle east in his 60s. Legit mad at hero because my 3bet with AK caused him to fold Q9 preflop, and the flop came Q93. Specifically said he wants to take money from me

Preflop: Straddle pot. UTG limps, Villain in UTG1 overlimps, folds to hero in BB who raises to 65 with AhKc, straddler folds, UTG folds, Villain calls.
Flop ($150): 8d7d7s, hero bets $55, villain SNAP jams for 400 total. Hero?

This is a flop where I would bet with a more polarized range against most people, but I think this guy is so wide preflop that Im betting my whole range for 1/3 pot here. The snap jam always seems weak to me, and I dont even know what he's doing it with for value here. I dont think he's jamming 89, or pocket 66, but even if he is we still have some equity. Flipping against most flush draws. What do you guys think about a call in this spot?

you're getting about 1.7 to 1 and need about 37% vs his range.

If you range him like 22-66, 99-QQ, all the broadway and Ace high diamond draws, T9s, A8o and A8s you're getting 44.6% which is plenty. If he's also doing this with some random hand like KQo or something it gets better.

So I would call here unless you think the range assignment is unreasonable and he does have some 7x here.

I would call specifically bc he said he was targeting you. I'd expect random garbage a fair amount of the time. Against hands like 99-QQ you're not in horrible shape.

Seems like a call. Why did you cb 1/3 pot on a drawy flop?

So you have air here and you want to call off $345 more because maybe the guy is pissed? Seems like you should maybe want a hand that has more equity than AK here to do this as even against some random pair, you are a pretty big dog.

I think this is an easy fold.

+1

AK in a HU raised pot on 877 board is not air. Air would be like J5 or 53. AK actually has a lot of equity here vs most hands.

Are we raising these hands to $65 pre? And what is V calling $65 pre with?

Let's make some reasonable assumptions before we simply assume we have "a lot of equity" versus "most" hands. I think that is BS and it is most likely we are either drawing extremely thin or at best to 6 outs twice with is like 23% ish.

But hey, if you want make a habit of calling off huge bets with Ace high, I guess I am not gonna stop you.

Look at my first post. If you would like why don't you assign a range and do the math to support your answer. Instead of using logic from the 1990s poker books. What's your range assignment here? Do you believe mine is way off? If so in which way?

Also work on reading comprehension. Where did I imply that hero would have J5? I was just giving examples of what an "air" hand is. And AK is not air here.

Agree to disagree. AKo is air on that board facing a shove over our c-bet. You can call it a bluff catcher instead if that makes you feel better about stacking off, but you don't have enough equity to call versus all but the most maniacal ranges.

So what range do you assign villain? Since you're saying the range I assigned is way too wide.

I'd be more inclined to see your point if you actually did any real analysis. Instead you're just like "Ace high, oh no guy is shoving must be quads. Fold." Pot odds and equity are actually things.

You don't have 23% equity just because you say it. If you said something like villain only has A8+ and 0 flush draws then I'd actually take your point even though I would disagree with your range assignment.

Fine. Your range is assignment is designed SO YOU CAN CALL. V is really shoving 22-66 here?? Seriously? I mean come on...

Look if that is what you assign then fine SNAP CALL ZOMG V IS BLUFFING.

But in my mind, this is a pure spew call without many hours and examples of V doing this exact thing over and over when he seems pissed.

Frankly given your range (which I didn't see the first time), it isn't worth it for me to do the math on any range I would assign because we will never even be close. You don't even have BD flush equity here, just overcards.
Either way, both ranges are total guesswork completely since we have no real history with this V. And given that, I will tend to believe this type of shove without very specific history.

Figuring he'll ship straight draws, fd's and 7X, 8x, 99, tt I give us 29/30%.
(Even if he only ships 7x 25%, we still only have 31%)

We need 37% so it's a fold.

Call with 99, when we're 58%.

I'd rather have 2 diamonds here or no diamonds. Since we have no diamonds it's more likely villain can have all the Ace FDs and all the broadway fds.

I guess we just have had different playing experiences. I've actually been in similar spots just like this quite a number of times which is why I have a strong opinion on it. Half the time villain has had a pp under the board and jamming for protection and the other half he has a FD and once in awhile a sd.

Think about most people's limp calling ranges. it's heavily pp and suited aces and suited broadways.

Shorn, you'd be surprised just how often Vs will raise/shove any pocket pair here because they "put you on AK."

I've seen it myself (and been shown pairs turning their hand into bluffs) more times than I can count. I think Spyu's range is nearly fair, but I would certainly put in some 7x.

Hand Results: I called. Turn 9d, river 6o, and he showed AK no diamond and we chopped. Based on some live reads and our brief history I think this was a pretty easy call for me. I even think this guy shows up with hands like KdTx, and JTo. Theoretically, I think this is a pretty close spot so I wanted to see different opinions, but in real time I knew this guy had a lot of spew in him to call here. Thanks for the responses!

Guess I lose. Damn I even run bad at posting too!

I come to this site for different poker perspective so I always appreciate the responses!

+1 calling off your stack with A high is a 1 way ticket to brokesville

"... At least FE is worth 10 "outs" to the next card and that is 20%..."

At last.

When I first started posting here, I asked a question about "what do you think the minimum fold equity is, on average, in general..."

EVERYone responded "that's a stupid/malformed/overly general/naive/moronic etc" question.

Nobody took it seriously.

But thank you, Celentano, for observing that there is SOME however ill-defined fold equity value in most generic situations, and providing an approximation of it for this thread and this situation.

To me, it is of some mathematical interest to consider what I foolishly continue to call "generic fold equity" or "average fold equity" - kind of like extra outs for aggression if you will - that may often make a close decision a little easier to be aggressive with.

A person can differ as to their estimation of how many extra outs or what percentage said alleged "fold equity from aggression" might be. To me it is at least 10%, or two outs twice, or four outs once... and it sometimes "pushed me over the edge" to be aggressive rather than nitty or passive. It doesn't have to work very often if the situation is a close decision, to be of incremental value. But I wouldn't argue if someone said it was 15% or 20% or some other number in given situations with given action and given flops. I would argue if someone said "it's zero if you were aggressive in this" - or most - situations.

I think it is there for anyone.

And since I tend to be nitty too often - it might actually mean something to my Villains and make them think I am stronger than I really am now and then, if I occasionally act as if that "fold equity from aggression" meant something.

Interesting concept. I assume that this only applies when you are aggressor (unlike in this example). Just so I understand, what you are saying is that if you have a relatively close decision, say you think the pot equity is 5-10% below what you need to call, you may decide to shove instead if you think V will fold that % of the time so that increases your "total" equity?

Thanks for any additional detail.

Shorn