Eff stacks are $1900


The villain and I have been playin at the table for most of the night, have not been involved in huge pots at all until this point. Hes an older reg who is a good thinking player, capable of tricky play.

UTG opens for $30, 2 calls, Villain raises to $100. Folds to me on the btn and I have KK I raise to $350. Folds to villain who quickly calls.

Flop is KQ9

Villain checks, I bet $500. Villain thinks for a min and calls.

Turn is A villain shoves for $1050 which I cover.

Does he have QQ more often than JT? or AA?

ez call or ez fold?

you have the 3rd nuts, and have outs vs the nuts. The only hand your afraid of is AA, I rule it out cuz he will be re raising you preflop wanting to get the money in. who 3 bets an UTG + 2 callers IP with J10? I think this is the most standard snap call I have ever seen in my life. Expect to be seen some weird two pair or lower set, maybe a pair + FD.

What did he show up with? AK? AQ? AsXs? Both 99 and QQ would have raised on the flop since its so drawy. Your hand is basically 100% good here.


What would of been more interesting would be if he re popped you preflop to like ~$750, Even I'm not comfortable getting 400bbs in preflop with KK (even though I doubt I would ever fold, might be a leak?)

Anytime you are 400 BBs deep and do not have the current nuts…it is never an EZ call in these situations. Sometimes these old tricky guys are really loose cannons, and will do all kinds of weird stuff if they are in the mood.

What would he make a “weak” 3bet with and call a 4bet with?

QQ – most likely candidate. He figures he could get some value out of weak hands that call the 3bet, but also get away from the hand if there is massive action later or maybe even set mine given the right circumstances. Played flop and turn like he could have this.

AA- Preflop seems a little weak, could easily flat the 4bet though instead of raising again. Played flop and turn like he could have this.

J10 - Preflop seems unlikely, calling the 4bet seems unlikely as well. Played flop and turn like he could have this.

AK, AQ or other combo draws that make pairs – AK suited makes the most sense. Played flop and turn like he could have this.

Given the action in this hand, I think this is a call, you are only getting crushed by AA. You are dominating QQ, beating a pair combo draw & 2 pair AK types, and can catch up in the event of a made straight.

Your 4bet is reasonable, but I think I would make it $450, and then fold to a shove. If he still just flat called, and the flop comes the same, just go all in on the flop.

i guess you could fold here if you dont like money.
seriously, this is an easy easy easy easy call.

If villian is an "older reg" whose "hasn't played any big hands", I sincerely doubt he's 3-betting with JT or anything that makes a draw here. I'd say his range is {AA,QQ,AK}. Let's look at each of these hands:

AA makes sense for his line. Preflop he doesn't want to shove because he's afraid it will turn his hand face up he'll only win 350 instead of your whole stack, so he just flats. The flop is pretty horrible for his AA but he can't bear to lay it down in case you have AK so make a reluctant call. OTT he hits his gin card and decides to just jam, figuring you probably have a set or two pair and aren't folding.

QQ doesn't make too much sense to me. Flopping middle set, you think he'd put you on AA or AK and c/r the flop. If he's worried you have a higher set, why would he c/c the flop, then jam the turn when he goes from having 2nd set to 3rd set?

AK is an interesting hand. In all honestly if he's a good player he should be folding it preflop as it's exactly the type of you DON"T want to play in a 4-bet pot 400 BB's deep. 4-bet ranges are very narrow at these stakes so he really has to entertain the possibility you have a set here. If not Aces or Kings, then at least Queens. He'd have to be pretty bad to play AK this way.

In summary, AA is most likely, QQ is unlikey, and AK is possible if he's bad. If you think he can have AK here, I call, if not, I fold. Again, this advice is predicated on this being his range. You said he was an older reg who hasn't play any big pots, so I'm assuming he has a very narrow range here. If you think he'd play a hand like AJss or AQ this way, then it's an a pretty easy call.

Sick spot, but I think it's a fold against this particular villain.

Most older regs would c/r OTF with QQ but just flat with AA.

You give the player a lot of credit here for being good and then just presume he cant lay down aa on a flop like that. Doesnt make sense.

I would also say his 3 bet range is potentially a lot wider.

As noted before, he may have talked himself into the slim possibility that the hero has AK; In addition, he may have the A which would give him an extra glimmer of hope...

If you dont understand why this doesnt make sense then Im not wasting my time explaining it.

Sounds good...

So he puts you on AK and then a set simultaneously? Im not saying he cant have AA just that there is a problem with your reasoning.

I think the missing piece here is how does the Villain see the Hero? What does he think Hero's 4 bet range is?

In the 2/5 game I play in, there's a decent amount of preflop raising (for one raise), but 3 bets are pretty rare. OP said villian was older and hadn't played any big pots, which leads me to believe he's on the nitty side. Your typical non-LAG 2/5 player's 3 betting range is JJ-AA,AK. Another factor is that we're pretty deep here. It would be one thing if villian were some rich busimen who just likes to gamble and doesn't think much of stacking off for 2k. That doesn't sound like our villian to me. For him to 3 bet to 100, call a 4 bet to 350, and play for 1900 stacks I think he must have a premium hand here.

nothing that beats you makes a lot of sense. JTs, maybe, but I'm willing to pay off for a guy that put in 1/5 of his stack with a spec. hand. AA? Misplayed if that's what he had, and I have a hard time putting him on this hand. There's 1050 to win 2400.
CALLCCALLLCALLALLLCLALALALL

Tom made some good posts in this thread and I am rethinking. Basically nothing makes sense, maybe AK. big-ace with two spades like AJss or ATss. Maybe A9ss if he's loose. They say "follow the money" - when the bets get big, previous information becomes less important and secondary to the fact that you're facing a big bet. So I guess AA and JTs are real and looming possibilities. But you do have decent equity against JT, so AA is the sole hand to worry about. If player was a nit, I could see this being a fold, but against "tricky, thinking" I would tend to discount AA and widen his range to make this a call, although it's not at all a fist pump.

this. 5betting AA here is terrible for villain to do. It's completely reasonable that his thought process could be 'ok there is 700+ in the pot leaving me just over 2 pot sized bets behind'

I think it is most likely he has the AA, QQ. I cant see any flush draws in his range.

That said, there are is a hand or two he could be turning into a pretty bad bluff for the board. JJ and maybe TT.

I also think him having the other KK is almost more likely than him donking his whole stack on the turn with AK or AQ like this. It's suicidal.

Yeah, you only have to be good here 40% of the time and I guess you'll see AK/QQ that often so I don't think I would fold this in all reality. I still think AA is the most likely hand though.

If he is a good thinking player as OP says and can hand read what is he pushing for value on the turn besides AA? or RARE JT? pushing QQ seems horribad if this guy is decent. +( not saying it isnt possibe just going with OP's read) unless he thinks you snap with AK. I have a hard time folding this though given pot odds and chance he shows up with QQ I guess

results:

i tanked for a good while, eventually called and expected to be shown AA

villain super shocked me when he turned over A9



i asked him if he wouldve called my shove on the turn if he checked, he said he would but shoved him self to fold out QQ which is what he thought I had

Even after all these years I still get a little "wow" moment and chuckle out of hands like this. I should know better as I have seen some pretty incredible crap hands show up in big pots like this.

So my question is, at the time, why did you call if your expectation was that you were beat?

Call the floor, there's 5 kings in the deck!

hoping to hit quads.

i figured QQ and JT had to make up some part of his range enough to warrant a call

this is either AK or AA IMO. Not QQ JT or other set.

IF VILLAIN IS REALLY GOOD PLAYER.

3 combos of AA
4 combos of AK left

But i discount AK being in villains range at least 50% or more actually. So i say that it is at least 3 to 2 that villain has AA here.

If villain is good, then he shows up with AA almost exclusively.

BUT, i would really have to think that villain is truly a "good" player who really would not flat AK for $350 OOP preflop. And this thought may be hard to come by. If villain has play to him, then snap.

so if villain wasnt lying, he just dropped in the "good" ranking.

well i feel good. i figured it had to be pr and flush draw.

You should not feel good about that read based on the OP. The OP is describing a good thinking player. Good thinking players are not calling a 4-bet OOP this deep with a suited ace often enough that it should be seriously considered in their hand range.

When the villain calls for enough that it amounts to half his stack being in the pot OTF, a pair+FD should almost never be in his hand range. If the K or Q was not on the board you might be able to make a credible argument for the villain holding AK or AQ. But even then AQs+ should be at the very bottom for a good thinking player's range when calling a 4-bet OOP.

While I am not ready to demote the villain from a good thinking player based on one hand, I think the OP missed something in his read in this specific spot. It is late in a session, the villain might have lost some discipline here or was jones'ing to win the hero's stack since they were deep. He is also trying to force the situation by trying this move OOP.