Still hoping for more info from op on coach's reasoning. How much Jt in villain range AP and why, and what about nut flush.

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Fine, anyone who thinks a call is trivially easy is not read to play deep stack poker.

What do you think hero's range is?

Quite the opposite. Once I've weighed all factors (we weren't given many) and made a logical reasoning to come to a decision....pulling the trigger should be trivially easy.

If it's not, then the only other factor that would slow you down is some kind of uneasiness about the amount of money. Which means you are NOT ready to play deep stack poker.

I'm going to rejoin the aids that has become of this good thread by waving my middle finger around and quoting myself.

Logical reasoning would lead to a fold. An emotional player might call because their ego can't handle feeling weak-tight because they folded a full house. The deeper you play, the more important making big laydowns becomes.

Re-read the thread please

I'm not sure why you're so insistent on branding me as one of Zeebo's victims. If you've been watching the PEZ show, you'll know that one of my staples of LLSNL advice is that river raises on paired boards are always full houses. I'm capable of folding a full house, as I'm sure you are, and 90% of the posters in this thread. What's your point?

And it's a mistake to eat yellow snow. Thanks Captain Obvious

Heading into the turn hero's range should be wide open, just about everything should still be in play, depends how often hero would choose to float, trap or give up. When hero bets the turn, presumably everything with reasonable equity still in play but I don't know how often hero chooses to check back broadway cards.

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best post in thread

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after thinking more about this hand, I really dislike the flop raise. what is our flop raising range? are we actually raising flops against this villain with air for balance?

if we are playing against an lol live player, fine flop raise for value but against somebody we have a lot of history against that's a good player, are we raising the flop enough with bluffs to balance ourselves? our hand is pretty face up when we raise the flop then fire the turn, pretty much overpairs and sets, maybe some fd's. so the check call on the turn by villain makes a lot of sense IMO and him bombing the river makes a lot of sense....

raising flops with air to balance our flop raising range can get expensive against good regs which is why I think better to not have a flop raising range at all

also pre, I think I like 3betting better than flatting against a LAG in position to better isolate and go heads up

Thinking LAG does not equal spew, so this riv sizing is more likely a level off his image with JT/TT/JJ than anything else looking for full value against even the bottom of heros range (Axdd)
His line is also not indicative of semibluff hands w FE (open/cbet-c/ck-c), particularly given this likely is a large pot irl. Such bipolar lines along with everything we already know about shoves on paired boards on the riv in 2-5 makes this a tank-fold that a good player would make outside of some gameflow considerations/tilt you picked up on... If he's betting with hands worse than 666TT then he's a whale not a LAG, but I see no indication that this is the case.

I've played a lot of 2/5 deep poker. This is a call. There is too much value to fold.

1, Not raising flop when we did hit a set and we knew we can get called by worse hand and draws?
2, I might raise with all draws/two overs etc. on this flop. So many hands in my raising range in a single raised pot.
3, 3betting with 66 is fine but it's never "better" than flatting.

He would not shove with nut flush and made that speech. Especially if he knew our range.

Sorry, the thread has gotten a bit long. What is your range heading to the river?

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As played fold. He has a bigger full house or quads here every single time (or at least he should, or you're raising ip too much)

It's not like you're raising every single flush draw combo, few, if any. First impression I hate his sizing but considering you have very few combos and a bunch of FH, I guess it's not bad.

The reason for leading into you is a bunch of guys would snap check back Tx and flushes.

When someone makes a dumb/ huge sizing, I lean towards thinking they most likely don't know how to value bet > they are pulling some sick bluff.

Edit: I didn't word that very well.

Look if you're the guy that only raises for value, in this case a set, then villain played it perfectly considering he knows what you have.

If your the kind of guy that is raising cbs with equity and barreling then he should be leading smaller. Which makes your decision closer but still a fold imo

Dam sun chips +1 atta boy

I like your posts in msfr too, fwiw

Lets just say on this particular day you are having some seriously solid soul reads, and under ordinary circumstances you actually wouldnt be folding but decide this is the spot to lay it down; if you are laying these kinds of hands down vs these kinds of opponents in these kind of spots you are leaving tons of money on the table. Basically you are expected to lose in spots like this sometimes, but the vast majority of the times you are going to be stacking your chips for the next 3 deals and asking for a color up. When you call and lose here you shouldnt even be mad thinking "oh man I knew he had it, I could have folded", you should be thinking about the 10k+ you're making overall in these spots in the future.

This is about as trivial as trying to fold KK aipf to a nit.

Tell me. What is villian donk betting 1.5x pot (or $1600, over 300bbs) otr that you beat?

Villain has JT /thread

What do players tend to c/c down with on a drawy board and then bet out when the draw hits? Honestly, wtf do you think villain is going to do with the nut flush? Check the river?

Uhh yes. I know for damn sure he ain't shipping 300 BBs on the river with a flush in this spot.

Yes.

Card removal. If we are V in this:

- If we have the nut flush, he cant, so he raised our cbet/bombed turn with either a combo draw or set (2P on T62 board is lol). Bombing river folds out many of his FDs and calls with all his FHs

- if we have a hand like 98dd, then his range is weighted towards bigger FDs and sets, we should just be getting to SD as cheaply as possible because we are probably still beat, but at least the paired board could slow him down

Bump... quick question...

How can we put V on JTo? 300+bb deep, calling a x/r with TPWK on the flop?

Is anyone else on this thread calling a x/r on the flop 300+bb deep with TP and 4th kicker on the flop?

First instinct is close.

But T OTR reduced TT combo. but we fear JT - that is how a good player would play JT right.

He is telling you to fold - is he levelling you?? who knows - whether he tries to make you overthink and call

obvious x/r could be an option for him: unless you have Bare J or overpair, otherwise with flush or fh u are always betting the river and x/r is surely strong but could get pot commitment

For me I would give up the pot because: if you and him are only good players at the table and there are fishes u are stacking off, just wait for better spot and I doubt he wants to be fancy against you neither...

I'm just not sure people in this thread would call this play a "good play" from a "good player."

Like if I posted a HH where I opened JTo 300+bb deep and got x/r on the flop, I think like 95% on this forum would say:

Fold pre; fold to the x/r

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I expect V to have a hand like TT/JJ more than JT even though TT is mathematically less likely.