2/5 NL cash game

I had Ad, Kc.

Utg opens for 20 in an 8 handed game. Utg + 1 calls. I 3 bet to 80 in SB, and only utg calls. (185 in the pot)

Flop is Ah, 10s, 4d. I bet 90, and he calls. (365)

Turn is Js. I bet 400. He had stacks of $5 chips with $1 and $2 chips mixed in and some $25 chips on the side. It looked like he had three hundred something left, so I thought I was going all in.

Then some black chips appeared that were underneath/behind other chips, and he raised all in to 610.

I protested that his black chips were not visible. The dealer said the black chips were in the middle of his $5 chip stacks, but I didn't think that was right and that they were not actually visible at all. The floorman gave him a warning and said that since it is a visual game, all his chips still play.

I always like to just know about how big everyone's stack is before each hand so I don't have to ask in the middle of the hand since that (and talking in general) could be a tell.

The floorman's decision did not seem right to me. If the other guy is breaking the rules, then I should not be able to get angled from it. Is this ruling typical?

Flat pre.

Check turn

Typically people just get a warning for first time infringement unless it's obvious they did it deliberately.

I'd ask how much he has left on the turn. There are some spots where I don't like to ask but this isn't one of them. It would be a reasonable question regardless of whether you have a hand or not.

Ruling is standard.

Dirty stacks happen. Having a couple $100 chips mixed in is common.

Sorry u lost.

Pre is standard IMO. Against an UTG open with only UTG1 calling, and being in the SB and OOP, I will flat with AK off here as well.

Bet flop is fine, but I'm checking turn here. There are almost no draws OTF, and once the J peels OTT there's not much left that we're ahead of. Seems like you crammed it in because you thought his stack was shorter than it was though, so I understand that. You just have to slow down and make sure you know your Vs stack size, especially when you already knew he had dirty stacks. They're not required to count out their stack for you, but if you ask them if they have any "blacks" or "big chips" they must make them clearly visible to you. You could have even directed the question to the dealer and he/she would have made V pull his big chips out of his dirty stack so you'd know how much he had behind.

Occasionally Ive been in a hand with someone who had a black chip I didnt know was there but if this guy has been at the table for any length of time I dont know how he has multiple blacks without you knowing. You should observe every player who sits down to see how much they are playing and as people win big pots you should be noticing who has big stacks (bigger than you).

Torelli strikes again


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Cash game players are under no obligation to stack there chips in any particular way, and Do not have to respond or move chips if you ask, the dealer on the other hand should be able to give you an accurate count if requested and the player is involved in a hand

You unlock this game with a set of key skills, beyond that it’s another rigged dimension that you’ve got to master.

Not exactly true. House rules may vary but in most places you are required to put your big chips in plain view. Either in front or on top of your stack.

Yeah, check turn.

The way I read what op is saying is that the villan had some pretty messed up stacks of chips, he isn't obliged to stack them neatly or ensure that they are 'easy' to count, but they can't be hidden from sight.... That's the way it is everywhere I have played (UK)....
I think more importantly for op is that he should be aware of stack sizes in general at the table....and if he is in doubt ask before you take any action....

Messed up stacks of chips is one thing, but black chips are required to be on top or in front (in plain view) in most places. They cant be behind a stack or on the bottom or in the middle of a stack...in most places. Actually where I play, you cant have a stack of greens behind several stacks of reds either.

We agree though, that every player should scan the table and know approx stack sizes at all times.

I don't think we can fold now to 610 total. Don't cry about extra chips on the table you should be hyper aware of all players stack size no excuses. 610 on top is brutal spot and I'd fold.

You need 13.2% equity. Call the extra $210.