2/5, $1k effective with BB, $300 effective with CO. BB is loose passive. I've seen CO limp-fold twice pre and then there was a hand where he limped HJ, I raised $25 with QQ, BTN, BB and he called, flop came 762ss x to him and he bet 1/3 pot, I 3xish'd his raise and he tank folded.

OTTH

Villain open limps CO, hero raises A J OTB $25, and BB + CO call.

Flop ($77): K J 8. X around. I would've bet this heads up, but this seems like a x three ways?

Turn ($77): 8. BB checks, CO bets $40. Hero?

I'd fold, don't want to have pay off $100 OTR, and bluffing just becasue we know he has a fold button seems pretty dumb.
I think checked to OTF I'd cbet though, they have at least as many Jx, 8x, 910 & Q10 to get value from as they do Kx, and you should be able to get to showdown pretty cheap after that.

I bet the flop. That board is draw heavy. Would you check AK, AA, etc.?

As played, I can go either way. Float and see what he does (he could be betting a worse J, which he will/should check on river) on river or fold.

I’m not folding OTT. Probably calling OTR a reasonable bet. Don’t love it now. Definitely would have bet flop 3 ways.

Pre: Good.

Flop: Good. I'm ok with a value bet here as well. This hand probably should go sometimes into a bet, sometimes into a check and against most passive villains I would tend to bet more often to charge draws with less likelihood of getting blown off a fine hand. Against aggro opponents, you don't want QT to check raise and put you in an awful spot. Especially multiway this should be a check more often though.

Turn: Never folding except to the nittiest of nits. When you check flop villains naturally think you don't have a K and will value be a J fairly often. Yes, he has a K plenty too, but you can't fold for this price. I call and evaluate river.

River: Very dependent on board texture. Usually passive villain will x river with just a J and K, so likely looking to check behind. I'm folding to a 9, T, Q and villain betting large for sure.

AP, I'd fold, primarily due to his sizing in this spot compared to 1/3 on draw heavy board in the other hand.

Passive player can have some suited KX and 8X closing the action. Might bet QT/T9 smaller, even X.

I'd mostly bet this flop, $30.

With position and 3 ways I would bet the flop but now fold the turn he's betting into 3 people and it seemed like last time when he bet he had a hand.

Tough spot with BB still to act behind us. I do not mind the check on the flop, but many scare cards can come on the turn to kill our action. We have to check some if we want to extract value from our J with a turn or river bet. Betting flop will likely not get many kings to fold as KA and KJ have us beat and KQ, KT, and K9 still have pretty good equity on this flop. So this is one of those situations where if you choose to bet the flop, it needs to be a pot-sized bet representing AK or KQ or even AA. That should get many draws and bottom or middle pairs to fold. Problem is those are exactly the hands we want to call. A large bet here will likely take down a small pot or loose a large pot when called. For these reasons, checking the flop is very reasonable.

Now, I really do not have a good read on the BB hand range in this spot and he worries me a lot more than the CO since he cold called a 5x raise OOP with another player still to act behind him and his stack is much deeper than is the CO. His call suggest a fairly strong holding but not one he wanted to 4-bet to get the pot heads up. His stack size indicates he may call more widely with speculative hands hoping to get good implied odds when he hits his hand. Need more info about how he plays to make a good decision here.

We are now being squeezed by the CO which is a really good move. We really should not be calling with weak hands against two knowledgeable players. They will see our call as weakness and will often raise us with a bluff or any king. The BB could have hands including a K or an 8 or a good draw that can now check-raise bluff on this scare card. It puts us in a tough position. How often do we think the CO would check a K on this flop? Probably not too often. He should want to protect a pair from the draws and from an A on the turn, unless he has AK. But that should want to bet for value. I also doubt the CO has many 8's in his range. CO could have a hand like QQ or TT that decided to bet the turn after we checked the flop.

I think we have three options open to us. Against tricky players I may just choose to fold now as even if we hit an Ace on the river we could be loosing to any 8 or to AK or to QT, We also risk facing a check-raise by the BB or a big bet on the river by either the BB or the CO. So folding is a very reasonable option.

Calling is probably the worse option as it suggests we have a weak made hand such as middle pair (which is exactly what we do have). It leaves us open to getting value bet by all the stronger hands or bluffed on the river by drawing hands that missed.

I think a raise is the best option in this situation. The sizing is the real issue. This could be a full discussion on its own. Not too big as better hands with an 8 will still call and worse hands will surely fold. Min raise not likely to fold out any good draws but draws do now worry about drawing dead against a paired board, so most weak draws will fold to a raise. I would probably raise to 100. That is a small raise, but it should get the job done. This is kind of a move called buying the showdown.

If the big blind missed or had a weak draw, he is now being squeezed by my raise as the CO can still 3-bet. The BB cannot call without an 8 or other strong holding such as AA or AK. If BB calls, we are mostly done with the hand. CO will fold if he was bluffing with air and will call with weak made hands and draws such as QT and QJ. Usually the BB will either fold or shove all in. The CO will usually call the raise and then check the river with his weak made hands. He is not likely to try another bet on the river unless he has made the nuts or a very strong hand, so we get to show-down cheaper than had we simply called the turn and the CO had bet again on the river. If the CO bets the river, we can safely fold 100% of the time knowing he has us beat.

Wait, by raising the turn, what do we accomplish? I know you wrote a lot about it, but how on earth are we worried about BB? And if BB has a hand, we'll find out by calling (or folding) for a lot cheaper than by raising. Why on earth do we want CO to be able to play perfectly by folding everything we beat and calling/raising everything that beats us?

I can see folding or calling, but raising just seems spewy. I can't even think of a hand I'd play that way (except a bluff).

I think checking the flop is fine. For those that say it's draw heavy, then you're betting twice on a blank? Just so you know, that'd be a spew with AJ here. This is definitely not the same as Kx. I think generally call turn here and decide on river.

I did end up calling, but I wasn't in love with it especially with the 8 pairing. Idk, folding to one bet seemed too weak but I was really unsure.

River ($157): 3. Villain bets $140. Hero?

Now you can fold. He's not betting that big w/ a hand worse than AJ, and if he is, more power to him.

I think betting flop is key here.

I thought I explained my rational pretty well, but will try again. I am concerned the BB could be trapping as he is OOP and it is natural for him to check many of his strong hands for deception and also in order to gather more information on how strong our hands may be. If we just call, he can decide we are weak and he can raise with anything from a total bluff to AJ, QQ, AK, or A8. If he decides to just call behind us, we won't know where he is in terms of hand strength. He could be drawing cheap or have a strong made hand that he is letting us bet for him. We really want him out of the pot.

A min raise should indicate we have a stronger holding and we perhaps were in fact sandbagging the flop ourselves. He therefore can no longer call or raise with his middling hands such as draws or AJ and QQ. If he calls, he likely has at least KQ and maybe hands like AA, AK, KJ, KK, or A8.

Yes it seems counter-intuitive to raise into someone who may have you beat, but there are good sound reasons for doing it. We are re-opening the action to the CO, so BB can no longer call and close the action. He is now being squeezed between me and the CO. He now has to mostly fold his middle strength hands and only continue with his stronger hands as he has to fear CO or button does have an 8 or at least a K.

My raise should signify to the BB I have a strong K at minimum and I do not believe CO or BB has an 8. I am playing a small game of chicken. But, usually it will work. The BB will rarely call with his weaker hands and any call by him signifies he has our jack beat.

So, as I said originally, if BB calls we are done with the hand. The idea here is a min raise now may save us from calling a larger bet on the river. In many ways it is a play called buying the showdown. If no one has an 8, my raise will usually force everyone to check on the river, unless they can beat trip 8's. So even a better 2 pair such as KJ or AA can no longer bet for value on the river.

I did end up folding. I think the flop is close between check and bet, I don't see how checking this flop could be a large mistake.

It's not a mistake to check flop. Someone needs to explain why betting flop is better. You're betting flop and checking turn then? River is probably a fold as played. Hand is fine.

You explained it fine the first time. I'm just not a fan of min-raising to "see where we are at," which is basically what you are describing. And BB is a loose passive player, so I'm not too worried about his check/raising the turn w/ worse than AJ -- I'm not actually worried about it at all because he's only doing it with a monster, and I'd rather find out for $40 than $80.

I'm not sure that checking the flop is a huge mistake, but once you check, I think you should call the turn.

I think c-betting this flop takes it down a lot, though, vs passive players who fold too much. Plus, it makes the rest of the hand pretty easy to play if called.

I see no problem with checking the flop. Your pre-flop range is going to miss this flop often including most Ax hands and pairs. By betting the flop, you are basically saying you have AK or possibly KQ. Most persons with a K in their hand and those with pp like QQ and some middle pair hands will still call. Then we build a pot which will be hard to bet or call on the turn when we get called. We also get some weaker hands to fold that we want to extract value from. So definitely not a mistake to check this flop from middle position in a multi-way pot.

Do not think of min raising as "to find out where we are at." we are betting for value most of the time and we are running a semi-bluff against weak K's or QQ. We are squeezing the BB so he can no longer realize his equity by calling with some of his weak drawing hands. We are trying to buy a cheap show-down on the river. We are telling the CO we do not believe you have an 8 and put your money where your mouth is. CO will often try to steal when next to last to act in a limped pot. His bet does not really signify much strength. He would likely have checked an 8 on the turn to let us bet.

When you 3-bet pre-flop with QQ and get called by one player on the button and flop is K85, do you bet or check OOP? Does a flop bet mean we are betting to see where we are at?

OK, I'm Loose, tell me one hand you would raise pre-flop, check this flop, then min-raise the turn with (besides LOL AJ) into these two players?

And then tell me what hand (that is waiting to pounce as BB or that bet the flop as CO) that beats AJ is folding to a min-raise on the turn?

And if we think CO is trying to steel, why would we ever raise?

don't call with bluffcatchers that can't improve when you're multiway with players left to act behind

Not sure what happened. Was just finishing my edit when the message became scrambled.

Agree calling turn is not a great option as it suggests we are weak and may allow the BB to raise behind us as a bluff and with his strong hands. If BB calls or folds, then checks the river, the CO can now value bet us and bluff a high percentage of the time because he knows we have a weak made hand.

In reply to Javanewt's question, I would take this line with hands like AA, AK, KK, JJ, QQ, TT, QT, maybe even 99 as well as AJ on occasion. Remember we need to be checking some strong made hands on the flop to induce weaker hands to bet as well as to protect our weaker hands from being exploited. If we always bet the flop with our strong hands, our opponents can bluff the turn when we check, knowing we missed.

So, a min raise on the turn represents a lot of strength including many boats. Even when the CO does have 78 or 89, he is going to think twice before jamming all in given our nut advantage and the strength of our checking flop and raising the turn. But if we are going to raise with these premium hands, we also have to have a few bluffs or semi-bluffs thrown in like QQ, AJ, and QT.

Now, CO does not have to be very strong to bet the turn. Since it checked around and it is likely the 8 did not change anything for anyone, he could be betting here with Ace high such as AQ. But other holdings he may bet and fold or even call our min raise with that we still beat would include things like AQ, QJ, TJ, J9, T9, TT, 99. CO may even fold some hands that beat us such as QQ, KQ, KT.

Our raise looks very strong, so CO may call with some better hands such as AA, AK, or KQ. But those hands will no longer bet for value on the river. Even 89 has to think twice before value betting the river as it is not likely we will call with many hands worse than AA. In essence, our min raise on the turn is a play referred to as buying the showdown. We are representing more strength in order to block our opponent from betting the river. If we just call, he may fire 150 on the river and we will have a more difficult decision to call or fold. If he calls our min raise and then leads out on river or he shoves on the turn, we can safely fold as we are beat. But if CO has a drawing hand, he will mostly call our min raise and then check down the river, even when he makes a straight on the river.

And the reason you sometimes raise someone who is trying to steal is because we are in essence re-stealing by mostly raising for value with our range but also bluffing a small (25%) of the time with some draws and weak made hands such as AJ. Our opponent likely is trying to steal with some sort of drawing hand such as middle pair or straight draw. Those hands do have equity. We want to charge them to realize their equity. We also want them to check when their draw misses, so they do not try to bluff the river. If we never show any aggression during the hand, we will often end up facing a large river bet which may be top pair betting for max value, or a bluff with a missed draw. Our hand becomes face up as a weak middle pair and we become exploitable. The top pair and two pair hands can bet 2/3rds to full pot and the bluffs can bet full or 1.25 pot, putting us in a very tough decision as to which hands to call and when to fold.

Hand is fine. I fold river as played. Prefer flop check, turn call. But if you want to bet flop, check turn that's ok too. Though I expect to see more bluffs on river with that line and I'd rather have my opponent play more straight up.

The idea of raising turn to 'see where we are at' is very spewy. And MUBSY to the extreme as we are worried about the BB who checked twice suddenly going for the turn squeeze play?

This is just really a fundamental miss understanding of ranges and range protection. Its good that you are trying to learn, but you are really missing the point still. If you divide your hands into three basic ranges, and bet accordingly you should have something more like this:

Strong/Nutted Hands + Huge Draws: KK, JJ, KJ, QT, AA, AK
These hands should be played as bets and raises to extract value. Edit: This needs more bluffs I know. This board doesn't have a lot of natural draws so 9T can go here I guess.

Medium Strength: QQ, AJ, KQ, KT, 99-TT, AQ, AT, 9T, QJ
These can be should mostly be a check on the flop multiway. Heads up some are bets for sure, but you notice that we have plenty of Kx here for protection. Edit: If we move 9T up then we should possibly include Q9s if we are opening that.

Weak/Garbage: The rest

You're strategy places all of your strongest hands into the 'sometimes check' range. Essentially you are trying to merge your strong and medium strength hands into a single range which is bad for multiple reasons...

1- It looses huge value with your nut hands.
2- You completely loose out any strength in your check, check range as you will have x flop, raised turn with your hands down to AJ on the turn?!!?

If there is a single takeaway it should be this. You protect your range with solid top pairs, not with nut hands.

I am not learning here, I am teaching. I have been playing professionally for six years now - meaning I have no other source of income and I am a very successful small to medium stakes player. In both of my last two sessions, I bought in for 400 and cashed out for 2600 both days.

Maybe I am not explaining my strategy very well, or you are all just thinking several levels below me and not able to keep up. Not sure which.

Yes I know most of my sets will be betting on the flop, but if you are playing a well balanced GTO strategy you will be checking them on the flop occasionally, especially from middle position. So when asked what hands are in my check-raise range on the turn, all these strong hands still have to factor in as less common but still in the realm of possibilities.

Sets are monsters and even though they want to build big pots and play for stacks, they often need to be played slow to induce some action. It would be a shame to bet a set on the flop and have everyone fold. Let them hit two pair on the turn and then lets build a pot.