There are two particular villains I can think of in my player pool who like to relentlessly 3bet my opens. Makes some sense since I do open more than most players... But... They're showing up with hands like Q8s, or A9o/A4s from the blinds to an EP raise, or AJo otb, or 77, or whatever.... In other words, I think they have way too many weak hands in their 3bet range, and I think this can and should be exploited.

I almost feel like defaulting to 4betting most of my range (note: we're usually about 1K effective or so), folding particularly crappy hands, and flatting only hands that can dominate like AK/maybe AQ or occasionally set-mine with medium to small PPs (while also being willing to call a couple of bets on low flops as most of their range will not be big pairs). Maybe also flat with hands like KTs, as I can put pressure on stacks given some good flops.

Anyway, when you're up against a 3bet from a wide range, what sorts of hands are you looking to fold/flat/4bet both IP and OOP? Keep in mind, we're usually going to be at least 200BBs effective. And I specifically don't want to just give them credit all the time.

They are perhaps over adjusting to what they assume is a light opening range from you. So in near future just play tighter oop and allow them to fps themselves broke. LDO but its an adjustment that about nobody ever actually makes.

But playing tighter isn't nearly as fun as playing aggressivier
Besides, at ~200BBs, we have stack leverage on our side for 4bet/fold lines (it's really hard for them to 5bet without committing themselves, or they see a flop and often have to decide to a cbet if they want to play for stacks).

If you are getting 3! Light then I would start trying to construct a 4! Bluff range. If you are value 4!ing let's say JJ+ ak, flatting aj, aq, kq, 22+ then you should try and 'balance that range with an associated bluff 4! Range of something like: a2-a5 suited, a3o, k9s, j9s, qts, whatever you want really, you should deffinatley uses a2-a5suited as 4! Bluffs and then either go buy feel in game, or set your self some certain hands you will play as part of your balanced range.for example I always play j9dd for an open, 3! Or 4! Bluff, unless vs an obvious stack off situation.... I used to use the range I suggested above, but now tend to go more by feel.
In my opinion you shouldn't expand your value range though, you will find your self in too many marginal stupid spots, in 4! Bet pots with crap spr....your bluff range should be what it is, a bluff range, that you can snap fold vs heat.
You can also mix up your 3! Flatting range to include a bunch of connectors if your 200bb deep, although I wouldn't expand your flatting range too much h especially oop....

1. What kind of junk hands are you opening with to get 3! by A9o/Q8s at 2/5?

2. Make sure that you don't have any bet sizing tells. I'm not saying that you do, but it's something to think about/review.

Mixing in light 4! are fine. But you should seriously consider tightening up your range from EP/MP.

It's only specific players who 3bet a lot. They're not only 3betting me light, but I think they'd tend to avoid light 3betting some random rec player who's only opening like 5% of their hands.

^^^Fair enough. Post retracted. In your OP, you made it sound like they were only 3!ing you.

Whether you should tighten up or 4-bet light depends on whether you're opening more than you should to begin with or just opening more than people think you should (which is often just about right), and whether given your opening range whether they are 3-betting appropriately.

If you're opening correctly, and they're 3-betting correctly, then suck it up, that's poker, you do you.

If you're opening correctly and they're 3-betting too wide, 4-bet them lighter. They'd have to be 3-betting way wider than you're opening to make 4-betting your entire opening range correct, that's pretty dubious advice.

If you're opening too wide and they're 3-betting you appropriately, you're being exploited. Tighten up, you psycho.

If you're opening too wide and they're 3-betting you even lighter than they ought to, it's kind of complicated. You should actually tighten your 2-bet AND widen your 4-bet, but depending on who's making the bigger mistake you may prefer to keep making a small mistake if they're making a big one.

Oh and if your 4-betting range becomes too narrow, then you probably want to flat a 3-bet with your entire continuing range (you can add a few hands you'd otherwise fold).

Really what I'm trying to get at is what types of hands play better as a 4bet/fold - given that they will occasionally flat 4bets - and what types of hands play better as flats?

I'd start by tightening your PFR range. You're really getting owned if you are raising a lot of hands that are unplayable flatting a 3bet, working on your 4bets won't fix that.

I think question 1 is still vital.

I mean first you have to recategorize these players (as you have) separately from the rest of the population in terms of there 3! Range. But I think the correct counter strat is to become more balanced in games with these players.

If you are way out of balance due to being too wide preflop you are simply being exploited. Your unbalanced exploitive play (ie: taking advantage of loose passive players by aggressively playing a wide range) can be exploited by better players. If that's the case you do have to bring your opens back in line esp in ep. Honestly whether they 3! Pre or flat and take a flop, if your range is too wide you will be over-folding or over-bluffing. If they are 3! ing pre it's more noticeable but if they are decent and flatting you pre you will still be over-bluffing or over-folding on later streets.

Im being presumptuous about your ranges but I'm guessing you may not understand your own unbalance.

Btw is this something happening with a high frequency? Or is it just occasional but noticeable because the rest of the player pool is never lite when they 3! ?



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If you want to play aggressive you've got to be prepared to stack off light and start 4 betting. Even if you get stacked at least they know you're willing to go all the way and they'll tighten up their 3 bet range but really the easiest thing is to tighten up pre flop.

It's so simple it might actually work!

I just flat three. It's not macho, but it saves a lot of head-aches. I am not experienced enough to figure-out what to 4-bet with.

1. Tighten your opening range. Get rid of some of the parts that would have to fold to a 3 bet.

2. Widen 4 bet range. More of your range is ahead so push it.

3. Only really flatting IP and the hands I'm looking at are smooth equity hands that can call lots of flop bets. So flatting pp's not to set mine but really for their pair value since that'll be ahead on flop pretty often and it's a rare opponent who can 3 bet light and double barrel air.

Aggressive isn't the opposite of tight.


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Just to be clear, I probably run about even against these guys when they 3bet me - maybe ahead, not sure - and my win rate is currently over 13BBs/hour after 315 hours at 2/5 (since I've been logging) so no I don't really intend to greatly reduce the number of hands I play.

That being said, these guys are a pain to deal with, and I'm just trying to figure out the best way to do so.

I'm not a complete preflop lagtard. I might open 12-13% in earliest positions, a little over 20% in CO, 25% or so in HJ, and into the 30s on the button... Limpers, especially UTG and UTG+1 limpers will affect these numbers. Also whether they are just dead money limpers (with stuff like 57o), if their limp-calling ranges are ahead of me (some tight players will limp/call almost everything) or if they're inclined to limp/3bet... Occasionally, at tables where I feel it makes sense (e.g. big fish, or a punch of passive fit and fold types), I can get looser than this

Here's some HH's...
1. Hero opens A7s after some limpers. V 3bets. Folds to hero who 4bets to about $200. Villain calls. Flop 956dd. Hero checks, villain checks. Turn 7x. Hero checks. V bets $205. Hero shoves for $600 (V's stack size, hero covers). V folds.

2. Hero opens AQ. V 3bets. Hero calls OOP. Flop is AJxss. Hero calls down three streets (almost folded river $400 shove, but river paired a 4 and I figured villain might have some weaker aces in his range shoving to block a perceived chop, plus there were some missed draws/etc). Hero loses to AJo.

3. Hero opens AQ. V 3bets from blinds. Hero calls IP. Flop is A96ss. V bets. Hero calls. Turn 2o. V checks, hero checks. River 4o. V checks. Hero bets $350. V calls and hero's hand is good.

4. Hero opens KQs. A few callers, and short stack shoves for like $65. V ISO-3bets to like $155 from the blinds. Hero calls IP. Someone else calls. Flop is Q high. Checks to hero, hero bets ~$200, and gets two folds, and hero's hand is good against shorty.

5. Hero opens KQs. V 3bets from blinds after some callers. Hero calls IP. Flop Qxx. V checks. Hero checks it back. Turn A. V checks. Hero checks. River x. V bets $100 into like $275 or so. Hero calls. V has A9o.

There were some other hands where I 4bet stuff like 88 and J9s OOP and got folds. And some hands that I flatted and folded to a cbet.

OP: how do I solve x?
Forum: do y
OP: but I don't like that answer
Forum: it's the right answer
OP: here's some spewy examples that don't affect the point.
Forum: still the same answer.

There are some decidedly good players here in LLSNL, who are very familiar with playing deep stacked 2/5 games and bigger. However, the challenge in these forums is weeding out advice that is more applicable for 1/2 beginners who primarily play games with lots of 100BB stacks and smaller. My posts are generally not targeted or asking for advice from that level/perspective.

My advice wasn't either.

axs/aq/kqs are great hands to have facing a possibly wide 3bet, obviously not advocating you stop raising those preflop.

I don't really get h1 (I think the only hands you fold out are drawing to 3 outs), you can fold river h2 (are people really barreling AT and worse for value in a 3b pot? And then turning it into a bluff on the river?) rest seems pretty standard.

I'm guessing these aren't the spots giving you trouble though

Play tighter, stop opening borderline hands that you would otherwise at a regular table is probably the best adjustments.

And no, I'm not a nit. This is coming from someone who used to open 65% OTB and toned it down to 40%

I had someone start doing this to me, and I started 4bet/folding weak Ax hands, and flat KK and AA sometimes. They sometimes dump their whole stack to me. needless to say, they stopped doing it light for a while.

you probably just dont 4bet enough. also you should be defending vs 3bets a lot