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2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot 2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot

07-02-2017 , 06:40 AM
Villain (SB): late 20s white guy, TAG headphones grinder ($900)
Hero (EP): mid 20s Asian, TAG image ($550)

Hero opens $20 with A4. SB 3 bets to $70. Folded to hero who makes it $155. I know a lot of you guys are gonna call this spew. But is it really? I block AA and he's gonna have a tough time continuing with even QQ. And it's not like TAG headphone grinders at 2/5 don't 3 bet light. I expect folds some of the time, very rarely getting shoved on and seeing a flop sometimes with a very strong perceived range. From a balance perspective, I need to 4 bet some bluffs anyways and this is a prime candidate. Villain calls.

Flop: QQJ ($310)

Checked through. Pretty horrible flop. Don't have much equity and don't see him folding much.

Turn: T ($310)

Quickly checked to hero. I don't think he has JJ. Certainly doesn't have QJs unless he 3 bet/called which is weird. One combo QQ so whatever. KK and AA possible. AK possible. Could have some suited connectors like 76s that are in give up mode. I think AK bets though. Have just over a PSB left. Should I bet like $125 and shove the river? I'm basically trying to make him fold KK here. He's a thinking player so he knows KK is not doing too well here.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 08:16 AM
Basically nut low board for your percieved range (AA/KK) but you'll have some quads/nut straight here and I think it's okay to bluff turn/river here - would not go for value if you are called on the turn and the flush comes in seeing as he has many boats in his range.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eholeing
Basically nut low board for your percieved range (AA/KK) but you'll have some quads/nut straight here and I think it's okay to bluff turn/river here - would not go for value if you are called on the turn and the flush comes in seeing as he has many boats in his range.
Bet turn and betting river when checked to is interesting, it's just a math question, he calls often since AQ/AK maybe even AA takes this line, only hand he folds is KK or 88/99 if he 3bets/call them.. i think he'll donk bet shove his boats OTR.

I have little experience in 4b pots tho
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 01:05 PM
If villain has AK here, he should be betting the turn to prevent boats and flush draws from getting there.
AK is easily in your perceived range after 4betting pre and checking the flop. The turn is a great spot for a bluff.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 01:21 PM
God awful spew. Not because it's not ok to have a light 4bet range, but it's bad because:

1. A TAG villain just 3bet your EP open and you have a TAG image. Do you really think he's ever going to 3bet you light from the small blind given he's out of position and there's no dead money?
2. Your 4bet sizing. When you choose to 4bet a hand like A4 suited, you're doing it as a bluff. You essentially min-clicked it back. Is villain ever folding preflop in this spot?
3. When he calls, you have a 1:1 SPR. There is no post flop playability/outplaying your opponent. Really all you're hoping for is that you hit your ace and he doesn't have AK or AQ, and you're not getting value when you do hit

I wouldn't mind the light 4bet if:
1. Opponent can be 3betting light
2. Stacks are deeper
3. Sizing is bigger - like 185 or 195
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 01:29 PM
You'd be surprised how wide (assuming if they are 3betting enough) people (even "good live tags", hah) will peel small 4bets even when OOP and even when only 100bbish deep. Without prior history in similar situations I wouldn't give him such a narrow range of just QQ-KK/AK although he probably does have those; who knows wtf he actually would take this line with but if I had to guess, he might do it with ATs-AQs, unsuited/suited broadways maybe, even some small sc and low Axs.

Also I really wouldn't worry about balance unless you're going to be playing with this guy on the regular or semi-regular. Even then...

I'd just fold pre, meh. In game I probably 4bet it some of the time and then regret it later.

As played flop check is ok.

As played turn check or bet is fine; both have merits. Agree to use small size if you decide to bet. I lean towards betting.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbardo
God awful spew. Not because it's not ok to have a light 4bet range, but it's bad because:

1. A TAG villain just 3bet your EP open and you have a TAG image. Do you really think he's ever going to 3bet you light from the small blind given he's out of position and there's no dead money?
2. Your 4bet sizing. When you choose to 4bet a hand like A4 suited, you're doing it as a bluff. You essentially min-clicked it back. Is villain ever folding preflop in this spot?
3. When he calls, you have a 1:1 SPR. There is no post flop playability/outplaying your opponent. Really all you're hoping for is that you hit your ace and he doesn't have AK or AQ, and you're not getting value when you do hit

I wouldn't mind the light 4bet if:
1. Opponent can be 3betting light
2. Stacks are deeper
3. Sizing is bigger - like 185 or 195
Exactly this

Except IP 4-bet can be 2.2x-2.5x, so something like 170-180 is fine. 155 is awful sizing
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 04:47 PM
1. A TAG villain just 3bet your EP open and you have a TAG image. Do you really think he's ever going to 3bet you light from the small blind given he's out of position and there's no dead money? Yes. TAG headphone grinder internet kids 3 bet light all the time. And when they do it who do you think they're targeting? TAGs like me or the fish who never fold? They're used to playing hundreds of hands an hour how do you think they adjust to 30 hands an hour? People who 3 bet light don't look down at 87s and say oh well the raise came from EP so I'll just let him have it. They find reasons to justify 3 betting it anyways like oh well I have to have some bluffs. It's basically the same logic as to why I'm justifying 4 betting A4s.

2. Your 4bet sizing. When you choose to 4bet a hand like A4 suited, you're doing it as a bluff. You essentially min-clicked it back. Is villain ever folding preflop in this spot? Well min would be $120. I do agree that I coulda made it a bit bigger but I wanted some playability post since I expect to get flatted way more than getting shoved on.

3. When he calls, you have a 1:1 SPR. There is no post flop playability/outplaying your opponent. Really all you're hoping for is that you hit your ace and he doesn't have AK or AQ, and you're not getting value when you do hit I'm hoping he's bluffing and I just take it down since I block a lot of his continuing range. I'm also hoping he folds strong hands like AK and QQ which people sometimes do when facing a 4 bet. Let's say he 3 bets QQ+ AK, 87-76s and folds QQ and AK half the time. Notice that this range is very value heavy. He's still only continuing 9 combos of KK+, 3 combos QQ and 6 combos AK which is 18 out of 35 combos. I need him to fold a little more for it to be immediately profitable but since I have equity, position and a very strong perceived range when he flats I think it's fine. Also I gave him a range that has over three times as much value as bluffs when in reality that ratio could be closer to balanced.

Last edited by LordRiverRat; 07-02-2017 at 04:59 PM.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr


Exactly this

Except IP 4-bet can be 2.2x-2.5x, so something like 170-180 is fine. 155 is awful sizing
so 154 to 175 is what you're saying?
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eholeing
Basically nut low board for your percieved range (AA/KK) but you'll have some quads/nut straight here and I think it's okay to bluff turn/river here - would not go for value if you are called on the turn and the flush comes in seeing as he has many boats in his range.
I guess turn is a good bluff spot. I don't need to size it big, don't ever expect a x/r and I have equity. I wouldn't shove a K river. But if the river's a heart and he checks to me I dunno if checking back is the best option. Especially when you said bluff both turn and river. So you're saying he's never calling KK or AA if turn he x/c and river he checks?
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote
07-02-2017 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRiverRat
I wanted some playability post since I expect to get flatted way more than getting shoved on.

I'm hoping he's bluffing and I just take it down


With this sizing you're not really gonna get many folds pre. You could exploitatively use this sizing with a hand like AA but with A4s I agree with the others that you should make it slightly bigger.
2/5 4 bet pot turn bluff spot Quote

      
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