cool, thanks.

this makes sense to me. i didnt even consider that latter part.

and

so does this.

I still don't understand why people hate raising on the flop. What possible hand does this tight UTG player have that has us beat (most people are saying amg what if V1 jams?). One combo of JJ versus all the hands he has that has equity but that we beat. Does someone really jam KK here as a bluff against someone who flats and a raise behind you? Or do people really think QT is in this tight guys UTG range? I'm just trying to understand what people are thinking here since this spot doesn't seem to be that problematic in my eyes.

The reason not to raise the flop isn't because we'll get 3bet by a better hand. It's because we'll fold out nearly every worse hand that could potentially put in more money later in the hand.

Just to clarify, if someone has any 9 here they have you beat ie nines full (99988) beats eights full (888JJ).

4. Full House
This consists of three cards of one rank and two cards of another rank - for example three sevens and two tens (colloquially known as "sevens full" or more specifically "sevens on tens"). When comparing full houses, the rank of the three cards determines which is higher. For example 9-9-9-4-4 beats 8-8-8-A-A. If the threes of a kind were equal, the rank of the pairs would decide

wow robot, I think some people really don't like you =P. Trolls4lyfe...

Anyways, your thought process throughout the hand is just fine, although personally, I prefer a bit of a larger river bet as you are not trying to induce V1 to jam and he may see a weak river bet as that opportunity to turn his KK into a bluff (although I doubt it).

WP'd, next time bet maybe 1/2 - 3/4 pot on river. I agree that your hand can most certainly look like "nuts or air" as is the common phrasing. V1 could very well put you on a busted draw and snap you off with QQ-AA.

Unless someone shows me that they are an amazing super star that is capable of 4bet bluffing this super wet board I´m not giving them credit for being able to do so. I raise these boards a lot because it hits my percieved flatting range, sometimes with air, and people play back with 1 pair hands. When they do playback and I flat it is a nightmare for them on almost every turn.

I'm pretty sure he meant that he didn't think anyone had J9, 98, or some random 9x, because of the way the hand played out. Thus, anyone who had trip 8s now has 8s full of 9s, which is smaller than 8s full of jacks.

PBack to the flop play;
this is a super deep situation, and so therefore it becomes an entirly different game, than even 150-200bb. Hand values are totally different PF (ATC goes way up in value, AA goes down; so folding J8 preflop is actually a mistake),and it essentially becomes a game of the nuts.
If you are raising the flop, it's only for one reason; not to protect, gain info, extract value, blah, blah; no, it's to GET IT IN.
Pots in NLHE grow exponentially, so you are ONLY setting yourself up to stack off in a major way to a hand that crushes you, and that's it. That's all you are accomplishing. I mean, you don't even have top 2. The difference btwn top 2 and top and bottom is like btwn AK and AQ, they look close, but they are miles apart. I could be wrong, but this deep I would think it's only correct to raise with the stone nuts 7T, or you have some monster combo draw, and you are a poker ninja;
Besides, even if you aren't behind in the hand, you still don't want to bloat up the pot, because vs a good player, you can get taken off of it later in the hand very often. Good players can punish you so badly in these spots, if they can put you on what you have ( ie, less than the nuts), they are winning the pot every time because the PTS ratio is so huge, there is a ton of leverage he can exert on you and your feeble play. If a good plyr sees you raise the flop w J8 on this board, this deep, you are giving him a green light to own you in future hands. He knows your mistakes, and will exploit you for it. Sure, this is almost never happening at these stakes, but it does, and if you are playing this deep, and are clueless enuf to raise this flop, then I would suggest cashing out, because you are dead $. 100 bb deep this wouldn't even be the same hand at all. You wouldn't mind getting it in, depending on reads, images, ect...
Not so impressed, impressed.

Now do you understand?

this 100%. b/w what cgeorg pointed out. we havent exactly defined villains ranges but shoudl assume strength given play and stack sizes. V1 has to be a complete ****ing idiot to lead here w/ ******** this deep into a shorty + my deeper stack behind. an overpair on this board this deep is like having Q high.

they can only do that when you give them the opportunity though. since UTG Villain and myself and 1 other player were pretty much the only other really deep stacks at the table it was highly improbably i'd be given the opportunity to witness him diong it to another player. no need to risk that here when i can improve to a nut hand being handed good odds against what is a wide array of nut hands on flop that become rather diminished by the river (which is why i can VB this river with impunity more often than not)

MAX value in this scenario isnt always stacking off. Especially this deep. Think about it - i scoop a 1200 dollar pot its the equivalent of stacking off if we were 100BBs.

I would rather be raising this flop w/ 23 off than J8.
At least when they call, i know i'm beat. lol.

this demonstrates something about the hand; that is that your hand is TOO good to raise with. you are essentially turning it into a bluff if your opponent(s) are aware of the languages of stack sizes. you're saying ' i know how deep we are, what that means, and yes, i'm looking to get 350bb in the middle'. is this what you want w/ J8??

you're not thinking of the plethora of bad things that can happen in NL when you don't think ahead.
why blow yourself off a hand that has SDV?

it's like squeezing PF, you want to do it w/ your top premiums, and your trash, but it's a waste to squeeze w/ decent hands, that might even be the best hand out, because they are folding the second best hands that you want action from, and you're getting action only when you're in bad shape. just sayin'

I never said I'm turning my hand into a bluff, I am raising for value. Yes I often raise without the nuts, as crazy as that sounds. You seem to be saying you would only raise with a made straight; I'm saying that against UTG's range you're missing out on a lot of value. UTG not being weak doesn't mean >> our hand here. In fact, our hand looks ridiculously strong (and it is strong). I'm sorry if we don't agree that our hand is strong - given OP's description of UTG, I think the ONLY hand he has us beat with is JJ, which is one combo. There are so many hands that we are ahead of but have decent equity against us and would make continuing multi-way awkward.

I'm not saying you can't choose to play it conservatively and flat it on the flop. I'm just saying that I really do prefer the raise on the flop. And as I originally said, UTG is free to come over the top if he chooses; it would just be so rare given our perceived strength and his range. I'm open to debating whether it's a raise/call or raise/fold. But I think we miss a lot of value by not raising. What is the plan if we're just flatting on the flop?

Is your plan to just call it down on turn and river? Are we praying for brick brick? Are we folding on any diamond, and paint, and 9? And for the love of god, are we even really folding on another 8? If we don't think we're ahead, why are we even calling? Are we peeling?

I gave ranges as an argument as to why we're raising. I also talked about that it's difficult to continue even though we're ahead. Is the opposing side's argument to keep the pot small because we don't have the nuts and are not ready to put a major amount of bbs in without the nuts?

If we're not ready to making a big pot out of this board, why are we calling the preflop raise, for perfect perfect flop? Obviously we called originally because I assume effective stacks are higher, yet now we're gun shy when we get a huge flop because effective stacks are indeed so high. Yes the cbet by the UTG raiser is at least some strength. That it indicates monsters... ummm... I guess that's one way of seeing it, even though combinatorically it's unlikely. How does UTG play AA here, check/fold??

One more thought -

Is the general consensus on this flop that we're behind? Or ahead. Maybe that's where people disagree.

Either way interesting hand with some interesting discussion.

100 bb deep, you're thinking, play, is fine.
200 bb deep, you're getting in murky territory
300 plus, you are dead wrong.

you do want to keep the pot small here, believe it or not.

super deep poker, it's like a hedge fund, they may be making investments that you could say 'thats a bad investment', and it might be for you or me, but they can afford to 'peel one off' because they are investing such an incredibly small amount of their net worth, and they are looking for mondo longshot returns.

what you have on the flop in this hand is actually a draw, not a made hand, because of this dynamic created by the money being so deep relative to the blinds. you are still speculating, so why invest more $? you are looking to diversify, not dump all yer eggs in one basket.

dude, if you are deep enough,(1000 bb) it's correct to fold the stone nuts, say, on a 9TJ flop and youre holding KQ
because you don't have the flushdraw, if it's for all the cookies.
DUCY?

so i think it's cool to keep the pot small, and relax, you are'nt giving away any value; the pot will be big enough if we actually do have the best of it,
theres just no way around having to play defensivly here. and it's not that it's 'conservative', it's just correct, and is actually aggressive play. just like folding can be the most aggressive play available most of the time.

@smoking robot you played it perfectly i hope you folded to the river check raise.

thanks, he tanked and flatted and i scooped.

stampler already posted everything I wanted to comment on this hand.
I'll just second that.

Well played.

If you had T7 here, how do you think about sizing otf? Like a general rule for strength shown + call this deep.

Is Q10 much different? ( I understand its different ldo but I mean in terms of flop sizing)

Edit: just saw this is ancient. Still curious about sizing this deep against two villains with nuts in position.

Grunch.

I am either going to fold or squeeze in this spot pre-flop. Since V1 is a tight player and does not open very wide, I am just going to fold this, especially since he is UTG.

As played, that is a pretty sick spot on the river. The problem with the 9 is that its going to kill all of our action. I like the bet, but what do you if V1 check-shoves? A flopped straight is going to be less likely to pay you off now.

I don't really know where I am going with this. I am going to hang up and listen.