Hero realised he totally butchered this hand after thinking about this spot for a good few hours...

Just want to make sure I realize how much of a donkey I am, I haven't played deep in a while....

Thoughts on this hand please!

$2/4, 400 cap.

V1, $550, MAWG , guy with TONS OF CHIPS in his chip case, I've asked around and he isn't a reg/proey player before this hand, my read after about 5 hours is that he is a richer abc recreational player, has lost like 2 buy ins. Had just come from work, still wearing business attire. utg+1

v2, $800, early 30s or late 20s asian guy, laggy, USED to be a proey from when I first started (2 years maybe), he's a reg imo, but now works some sort of job because he has just come from work and is wearing work attire. only hand he has showdown in the last 1 hours is a hand where he flatted small raise in the big blind, called cbet with top pair small kicker and made two pair on the turn to stack top pair top kicker on draw heavy board. bb

v3, $700, mega whale, whale of whales. loose passive, likes to raise and see flops with all sorts of junk. very friendly guy but definitely over values hands. has played with hero a ton because hero used to grind daytime 2/4 and he would always be playing. c/o

Hero, $700, young asian kid, prob seen as tight aggressive, has really not shown down much besides a flopped straight and quad aces (3AAAQ board) on the turn against whale v3, generally raise pre/ cbet/ fire turn lines or check fold turns/rivers or take it down. btn

V1 makes it $20, folds to V3 who calls, hero calls with 89 because of whale/s and V2 comes along too.

Flop (~$82): T76

V2 checks, V1 leads out for $61, V3 folds, Hero?

Raise to 175

Well, you haven't butchered it yet. This is looking like it's going to be a PAHWM.

Yeah, raise. With your call, pot will be ~200. 175 - 200 seems about right. Pot will then be 550 - 600 with 470 behind for V1, 620 for V2 if he happens to come along, though that's obviously doubtful.

Ship it over any RR. Otherwise, either jam the turn or bet the turn/shove the river if you think jamming will make everyone fold.

Wow you really are Flopp3dIt lol.

100% raise vs a guy with a ton of chips. You want to start building the pot and get him emotionally attached before a scare card slows him down. You also would like to fold out higher FDs or get them to spazz out.

You don't want to fold out higher flush draws, you want them to call, especially with them having two less outs than they think. Getting them to spazz out is fine too. Whatever we can do to get money in the pot.

Definitely raise.

Only reason I opened this thread was to make this joke, but now that I'm here. . .

I don't think there's a huge difference between raising and calling this flop. Against a good player I would just call, and with a laggy player in the blinds, you could certainly induce a postflop squeeze by just calling, but it can never be that bad to just pile in the money against a rich guy who's already stuck two buy ins.

If you just called and someone turned a better flush, you probably didn't butcher the hand, by the way.

#1 you don't need a whale in the pot to play this hand; it has plenty of value. You can actually 3-bet with this hand, although not in this spot.

#2 the PF raiser is polarized OTF and will probably get away from about half his nuts if you pressure him. Really, the only hand that's playing back at you is the one you fear, big spades. Although it's possible you can build a big multi-way pot in this spot, OTF, it doesn't happen all that often. So you don't get a ton of value from a raise, at least not from typical regs who can release a hand on this type of board.

#3 the problem with calling is that there are so many bad cards for you. It just happens so often, you call, the EP guy behind you drops out, a counterfeit comes off, and it goes check bet fold.

#4 it's a little tempting to go Jamie Gold here and try to get the stacks in.

I think a lot depends on your current read of V2 which you haven't stated, for some reason. From your description, he may have some continuing interest in the hand.

The issue is what is the best way to get the stacks in good. It requires someone to get his stack in bad, which is less likely as the streets progress. Given the available information, I would raise and hope V2 woke up with a hand; just raise a bit under pot I suppose. Push in $200 and hope someone wants to tilt it off.

It'd be sick if someone actually had 56

An interesting question is what should his range be in this spot. Does his range have any balance at all?

I don't think there's any good argument for calling. If ever there was a board that would enable you to get money in way ahead it's this one.

Interesting juxtaposition. I think there is a good argument for calling, but it requires 10,000% more info than we're given.

You're deep stacked with more than one person interested and 40 action killing cards in the deck. Bloat. The. Pot.

Okayyyyyyy, hero made it $180.
V1 immediately folds OUT OF TURN and laments how bad he runs, showing JJ...


V2 enters the tank but eventually folds.

I was thinking it was a huge mistake because I do block spades from coming and my hand is pretty strong.

My initial reaction was to raise especially since every card kills my action besides a select few AND THATS only if he has a stron hand etc etc.

I very much doubt v1 will continue with a bluff on there so flatting doesn't really keep in his bluff range.

If I flat, V2 might get aggro with a vey strong hand and I can back raise into him?

I just think I missed value and wasn't sure if it was because I'm playing scared poker or if I'm playing good poker.

Obviously twoplustwo seems to be more interested in a raise rather than a flat so I dont feel so bad now.

Poker provides ample opportunities to learn the wrong lessons. The fact that he snap folded means he was bluffing, and you weren't getting another chip anyway. Horrible play, to turn JJ into a bluff; I can't think of a reasonable range for him in that spot.

At least now you've spotted your fish.

When you flop the nuts your main goal should be getting stacks in. Usually raising is how that is done.

Slow playing is generally correct when...

Your hand is not vulnerable.

You probably won't get action now, but probably will get action later.

Another card might give V a good second best hand or an unprofitable draw.

The loss of a round of betting is more than compensated by the other benefits of slow-playing.

These don't really apply here. Although not likely, there are possible draws that will overtake you. It's not clear that you're more likely to get called on the turn than the flop. It's not clear that a card can come that will give V a good second-best hand. Stacks are moderately deep; losing a round of betting will make it hard to get stacks in (unless you get outdrawn, of course).

This time the raise didn't work. Oh, well. Next hand.

I prefer a raise but maybe smaller. 140-ish perhaps.

When he folds, don't worry so much about this hand, make a note for the future. This villain will fold overpairs on scary boards. That can be good for us.

Bet/folding JJ on this board is obviously not the same as bluffing.

Obviously, it is, exactly the same. Welcome to reality, where ideas only count when they're effective.

If, when you bet, 35% of the time villain calls with worse, 55% of the time he folds with worse, 8% of the time he raises with better and 2% of the time he raises with some equity, did you bluff when you took a bet/fold line?

Yes. And BTW your belief that villain never calls with a better hand in that spot is irrational.

Call

i was merely creating a hypothetical to show that bet/folding on a wet board does not mean that we were bluffing.

In any case, the hypothetical bet I postulated would profitable regardless of whether it is a "bluff" or a "value bet" and a significant portion of the profitability of the bet comes from getting someone to call with a worse hand, so you call it what you want, and I'll call it a value bet.

I'm pretty sure betting in the hopes that worse will call is not bluffing.

I'm pretty sure that when you're bluffing, you're hoping that only worse will call.