Hi guys.

2/4, $100-$400 buy in. Hero at this stage has got a TAG image showing down good hands only except one bluff where I bet the river and got called after missing. Stack $400.

Villain in this hand is somewhat on the less active side for low stakes but I have seen him bet/raise all in with TPTK on a 337r A board after he checked to the biggest stack out of position then bet/shoved an A turn after the big stack raised his bet with 77 and called his shove for ~60bb total. He seems to play quite a few hands to raises preflop but is not too out of line. My overall judgement is he plays a tight-aggressive style with sound preflop hand selection but isn't that competent postflop. Stack $400.

Hero is UTG+2 with AQ

Blinds post
UTG unknown limps
UTG +1 folds
Hero raises to $20
UTG+ folds
V in HJ calls $20
CO folds
BTN folds
Blinds fold
UTG calls $16

Flop ($66): Q T 6

UTG checks
Hero bets $40
V calls $40
UTG folds

Turn ($146): J

Hero checks
V bets $55
Hero calls $55

River ($256) : J
Hero checks:
V bets $135

Hero ?

You must fire on this turn or x/r. You cannot fire 2/3 pot sized cbet then check/call V's value bet.

V here can have AT+, KTs+, 66+. KK+ & AK he's 3betting u preflop and u can eliminate QQ as there's only one combo left, leaving it extremely unlikely. Thus, top of his range includes, AK, TT+.

Many times V will hit this board with at least 1 pair or a draw. We must fire again OTT, especially this turn. If V checks back and a spade falls or 4 card broadway falls, where are we now? BAD spot.

Either fire again OTT or check/raise OTT. Check/call will lead to a disaster.

I don't like the turn check. It gives him total control for the rest of the hand.

bet/fold the turn, you also picked up a gutter. as played he would show up with Qx (or 10x with his read) here alot. call turn, call river

As played, call. I would have bet turn.

I agree with your PF and Flop play. I think you should have bet the turn. Did the J scare you?

You mentioned you thought V has sound preflop hand selection. What range do you think he is calling a PF raise with in the HJ? I agree with the above poster. If he has sound preflop hand selection, he is probably 3-betting preflop with most of the hands he is beating you with.

Also, his small bet after you checked on the turn seems to me like he is trying to steal the pot. Were you trying to keep the pot small since you don't have that big a hand?

This is an area I am trying to improve upon. How to control the pot-size relative to my hand strength.

Agree that betting turn is correct.

disagree that betting turn is correct

well.... its ok w/better reads but usually checking is better vs described villain

as played, fold to that betsize, he has you beat. you played the hand perfectly if you did, imo

I'm curious as to why you think he has Hero beat with that bet size.

i mean how many bluffs does villain have here, and is he ever betting this much with KQ or worse?

the turn is OK to peel, but river villain should be checking back or betting relatively small with =<Qx

$135 is about never a bluff here, hell anything over $100 is serious bizness @ 2/4

betting turn merely to "keep control of the hand" is often overrated

we checked the turn to him so he could have anything including small pairs and betting small to see where he's at. If he had a set or 2 pair I think he would bet higher to protect against all the draws.

We are not betting only to "keep control of the hand". We have TPTK, and he called the flop. I would still bet for value since he was described as having a wide calling range pf and not too competent post flop.

Gotcha. I thought you were speaking about the bet size on the turn. You meant the bet size on the river.

I agree that villain is probably never bluffing on the river the way he played it.

J is a terrible card for us. Only good thing is he probably can't raise here for value. As we have AK in our range. I would lead small as blocker bet. $55-60. Only getting value from KQ. But he will fold some hands that may bluff. I rather lead here, if we are going to be check calling.

River as played is a fold. We beat KQ, and total air. He just doesn't have enough hands in his range we are ahead of.

Bigger pre to $35. If you get one or two callers, your SPR will be 3-5 you can more confidently PSB the flop and prepare to get it in with top pair.

As played, you need to bet the turn. You can't risk giving a free card, even though you want to pot control at this point. You'll have some fold equity. If V calls, you can decide on the river if you want to check for a showdown. You'd fold to a villain turn raise.

I'd fold to the river bet. You only beat a bluff or KQ. Every other reasonable hand beats you.

so, do i have this right? simple breakdown on the merits of betting vs checking turn, if i'm missing something please fill it in -


arguments for betting:

* maintain impetus
* grab thinnish value from primarily KQ-KJ, occasionally stubborn AT, KT, AJ, Q9s
* not allow free cards (albiet not many river cards should be "scary" to us)

arguments for checking:

* high probability of value-owning ourselves by betting, checking can pot control with a mediocre hand
* adds overall deception to our image
* we allow the possibility to confidently go for two streets of value if villain checks behind and river bricks off - the b/c/b line is obv called lighter than b/b/b
* allows villain to semibluff or valueown himself with hands that may fold to a barrel
* to a smaller extent (and this is a minor consideration in most 2/4 games), checking turn with TPTK might help in a GTO sense later on if this hand is showndown; anyone paying attention will be less inclined to float our future cbets with air then bet OTT when we check


OP's description of villain is kinda off in that he says villain calls many raises pre, but is TAG. if in actuality villain is anywhere close to TAG i think check/evaluating is often >> barreling turn all things considered

obv this can change over time if hero & villain play often enough together and hero develops more concrete reads

If this is at Crown (I reg 2/4 there) then failing to bet for thin value against stations is the single biggest mistake people make. i routinely get 3 streets of value with TP?K against these guys and that should be the default line until raised in most situations.

turn is a bet and agree with ^^ that you should continue on the lower side and ofc bet/fold if he comes over the top. $55-$60 pot controls, retains control and blocks a huge part of his range that can bluff here. the arguments for betting the turn outweigh the arguments against quite considerably - but, granted, the size of the bet is important and the size should be whatever you believe KQ will call.

river is a probably a good fold given sizing (vv AJ, QJ or JT most likely) but i'd be aiming for better value and control for those times you don't see a J, J runout - which is ofc ~always.

Nice post. I would check turn here often. (Not with a J though). And Check raise alot of turns here. J just helps his range so much. But it is a card where alot of tag won't raise 2 pair here because AK got there.

So I prefer to bet small (I rarely do this, maybe 1 a month). We get him to fold his garbage and realize our equity.

Against what most people on this site. OOP I like to check/call alot of turns. Mostly with Top Pair hands. As you pointed out. It stops them from auto betting everyhand.

I would probably check call any K or 9. Bet an Ace. Check raise Q. Raise or check call every other card. (A good percentage of time). For those that are gonna cry foul. We don't have same plan vs fish and calling stations or nits.

If we are getting floated on flop alot. 100 BB deep I am gonna check shove my TPTK alot. Even at 1/2 you need to balance vs Tags.

Any how. Like your post. Just won't fly well on a site that loves to bet/betbet

i mean the guy lost lots of $ on a 337r A board w ak, not the biggest leak ever.. I call turn fold riv

The turn arguments this poster listed are what my thought process was when either checking or continuing with another barrel on the turn. The J helps his range significantly but a lot of hands that called the flop may try take control on the turn and I don't expect him to get too frisky on a lot of (if any non-nut making) rivers if he bets a decent amount on the turn and we check/call. + If we are behind there are a few nice river cards and shutdown cards (9) and lastly I felt the dynamic at the table in HU or 3-way pots were flops were getting called/floated quite frequently. I think the bet-bet line is too meh even if we're bet folding the turn. I think most of the time though we're getting called and in a bad spot if a 9, A or even a J or T peels and we check and he bombs 2/3 pot after we check. I think check/raising vs this villain is the worst decision unless we're setting up for +ev lines later and have massive pockets for the variance.

your plan is solid. People are less likely to bluff 2 streets. So check call line will go check/check on river often. On J river we can't do anything but fold to a big bet.

Think you miss understood my post. J turn is terrible card to check/shove. I would check/fold before I check shove the jack.

people worry about giving up the lead to often. Normaly the same people who slow play Monsters to often.

Have you assessed the villain correctly?